Author Topic: The Imperial Children's heights  (Read 9212 times)

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Offline nena

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The Imperial Children's heights
« on: October 21, 2009, 06:30:01 PM »
I tried to find out the heights of OTMAA by using applied mathematics. The only way is to use proportions. But of course, if conditions allow us to do it.  We have several problems. To start by mentioning the idealistic conditions. At first, we must have two important parameters – correct years of the photo (later I found out that I had mislabeled many photos), and either one of parents (Nicholas or Alexandra) with one of OTMAA. When we find these photos, we must make sure that they are standing at same feet line. (reason – as the objects are nearer to camera (compared to other object), they look taller/bigger than another one, so the measurements (done by my ruler) turns supernatural). Then, we have to dismiss high heels of Grand Duchesses’, or simply to take off those centimeters. ‘And of course, they must stand, no bending or facing down permitted’. As well as for the hats, it is not so hard to recognize the upper lines of foreheads/tops of heads.
So, may I take Nicholas’ height to be 166 cm (median result, according to the Forensic results done in 90s, the length of Body No#4 is to be between 165 and 170 cm long,  and it is 166,5 cm), while Alexandra’s one is to be 167 cm. In their engagement photo taken at Coburg in 1894, she was, and indeed looked taller than him. So, one centimeter plus/minus doesn’t change things drastic. Because, things are very relative, and many factors take part in whole story. When we discover at least one correct height of any of the IC, we can use it to compare with others’. I managed to make some oriental results (throughout the years) we can count on – since Imperial Children grew up increasingly, all expecting the Anastasia, while Olga stopped growing that much visible, (she was the oldest) sometime in 1915/6.

I got some contradictions – it is sign of mislabeling the year, or even my bad eye. I once got Aleksei’s height to be 130 cm in 1912, while in 1913 125 cm. Of course, something was wrong. I tried over and over again.

Now I can freely say that photos what fulfill all those mentioned conditions are rare, to find correct year, standing in full line, also in same feetline, whole bodies, without extra clothes, like hats, high heeled shoes, caps and the rest are.

In the year 1908 (using Lanie’s label from www.livadia.org), where the Empress stands with OTM on the balcony a AP, only Maria is standing in the same feetline as Alexandra does). For same year, I measured Alexei’s height with Nicholas’ one while being reviewing the Standart in 1908. (I remember source comes from GARF).

1908



Alexei 103 cm



I also may add another results (they are highly wrong, simply because they contradict with results from 1909/1910, which are much more precise)
Olga  146 cm
Tatiana 144 cm
 Maria 132 cm.

Even not all conditions from this one are fulfilled!

1909 / 1910



 Used Nichoals’ photo with all of the IF standing in same row, taken by Empress at the AP.

Olga  153 cm
Tatiana  140 cm
Maria  130 cm
Anastasia  119 cm
Alexei  111 cm

Now 1912 comes. I used two photo shoots – from Borodino celebrations in August (to find Alexei’s height from the year out) and from The White Flower Festival held on April 23rd 1912 at Yalta. Tatiana took over Olga, became taller than her.



Olga   150 cm
Tatiana  156 cm
Maria   143  cm
Anastasia  129 cm
Alexei  115 cm

In 1913, thanks to kind Sarushka’s post in which she gave us the measurements of Big Pair’s Court Growns, I calculated their heights to be 158 cm for Olga and 163 cm for Tatiana. We see, Olga stops growing, while Tatiana continues increasingly. Soemthing is indeed odd with measurements of their Regiments uniforms.

It is hard to find 1913 photo with other members of family, unless conditions are harmed, which they are. I can only be sure of OT heights  -- as well during Tercentenary celebrations at Moscow, Kostroma, St. Petersburg and in the other cities, Alexei stands in the same feetline as his parents. But it is too risky to try anything. I got something around 125 cm on regarding him, and approximately 145 cm on regarding Anastasia.

1914


(GARF labels the last one to be taken in 1914 actually, Maria began having her hair up before turning 16)


Olga 158, 69 cm, we can take it to be 160 cm (decimal numbers and rule, if the number passes over 5, we 'ring about' one cm more)
Tatiana  163 cm
Maria     158 cm
Anastasia  147 cm

I used formal shoot from Livadia (or AP) from the spring of 1914, comparing another one photo with Alexandra’s height. Most likely I counted Anastasia’s heels, so her measurement may be not correct. Alexei is to be done. Maria seems to be grown up, just to be as same height as Olga.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 06:54:37 PM by nena »
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Offline nena

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Re: The Imperial Children's heights
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2009, 06:30:16 PM »
1915



In photos from the Autumn of 1915, when Alexei went to Belarus’ front fields, He could reach Nicholas’ shoulders with top of head, which is 7/8 of his body length, so 143 cm. (Also similar results when using proportions. Couldn’t find the exact photo of he other family members with all these conditions needed. IMHO, photos with Gd Xenia’s sons and Kolya would be helpful. I think they were taken late 1915/ March of 1916 (Prince Michael of Greece’s book).

1916

After nose bleeding in November of 1915, Alexei recovered and grew up, just  to be back at Stavka at Mogilev in May the following year.

At one review of Army both Nicholas and Alexei took part on July 4th,  Alexei was 145 cm. I got few different measurements from 1916 (if year is correct, though) – going from 142 up to 145 cm, and once 150 cm. Same heights from photos taken on the outings surrounding Mogilev in the summer.



Now the October 4th 1916 comes when Nicholas and all of his children took part of reviewing Konvoi march.




Olga 161 cm
Tatiana  165 cm
Maria   161 cm
Anastasia  147 cm
Alexei  145 cm

We see, Olga and Maria are same heighten, while Alexei grew quite a bit. Anastasia remained to be short.

In 1917,  Alexei has grown up, quite a lot, so the only one photo I am able to compare is the one from March of 1917, during breaking the ice along with his father (At first I got 146 cm). And it is 154,55 cm. I don’t have any another to contradict this, but he has grown up a lot. And most likely he was taller than Anastasia. Unfortunately, Captivity photos don’t satisfy my expectings and don’t fulfill conditions.



I can only speculate, that by 1918, Alexei has grown up, I remember reading that he was ‘as same height as his father’ by time of their death.

I am looking for some photos for the other years as well, so I would try to do other calculations. It seems, that those photos are hard to find. I think I would be able for Alexei’s heights in 1906, 1907. I’ll see.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
These calculations ensure some facts relating the Children’s heights during their lives. And as we know just one precise and correct measurement, we can calculate the others, unknown to us. Almost everything, even the dresses, facial/figure dimensions, and so on. I faced with bunch of mistakes/contradictions, either with mislabeling my Romanov photos, or incorrect measuring. I hope I gave the wider image on them. We need ruler, calculator, and as the saying goes by ‘Use your common sense’, and some proportions as well.

And freely sometimes put your own personal, instinctive thoughts, into formulas - they help. A lot.  ;-)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 06:34:42 PM by nena »
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Offline nena

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Re: The Imperial Children's heights
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2009, 07:18:55 PM »
I know that International System of Units differs per some countires, so by using another ones, for example inches. For those, the only thing you ought to do is that to comminute measurement in centimeters with 2.54. For example 180 cm is 180:2.54 = 70,8661417 inches. Same goes for feet ,online calculators are available.

I repeat, any remark, sugesstion or preposition is most welcomed relating this thread. I will try to do with rest of the years as well.
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: The Imperial Children's heights
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2009, 07:56:51 PM »
From a chart in Taina Tsarskikh Ostankov that lists and compares the height estimates made by the American and Russian forensic teams who examined the imperial family's remains in the 1990's:


(measurements are in centimeters)

The estimates for skeletons #5 and 6 are not very helpful, but it looks like your measurements for Olga are very close to the professionals', nena!
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Offline RHB

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Re: The Imperial Children's heights
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 12:00:51 AM »
what about their heights in feet and inches like wasn't Tatiana around 5'8" or something and that's 5 feet 8 inches by the way. Sorry i don't get the centimeters and stuff!
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Offline Tina Laroche

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Re: The Imperial Children's heights
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2009, 07:24:19 AM »
what about their heights in feet and inches like wasn't Tatiana around 5'8" or something and that's 5 feet 8 inches by the way. Sorry i don't get the centimeters and stuff!

Try some of the online converters...

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: The Imperial Children's heights
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2009, 10:52:53 AM »
From centimetres to inches, divide by 2.54.

From inches to centimetres, multiply by 2.54.

171cm for Tatiana comes out at just over 5ft 7, so she was on the tall side.

160cm comes out at 5ft 3.

Offline nena

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Re: The Imperial Children's heights
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2009, 09:43:31 AM »
I made a diagram in function h= f(y). That means, height in depending of year (in centimeters per years).


(Olga = Yellow, Tatiana = red, Maria = violet, Anastasia = rose, pink, Alexei = blue).
Few instructions:

- Points where lines concur, (scrolling down to year) is the year when two of IF children had same heights. (We can see it is 1912 for Olga and Tatiana, 1914 for Olga and Maria, as well as Alexei and Anastasia sometime around the middle of 1917....)
- As lines are as rapider, it is period when one of OTMA grew up so increasingly (Alexei, going from 1912, as once it was noticed after Spala incident)
- When lines match, it is sign that two at least of Children were as same height as, Olga and Maria, from 1914 going on.

Also, we can read approximated heights of some of OTMAA in some years we haven't got the chance, like 1911, 1913, 1915 are.

(edit - I clicked on 'post' before finishing story, to be continued...)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 09:54:47 AM by nena »
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Offline nena

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Re: The Imperial Children's heights
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2009, 10:31:58 AM »
1913



Nicholas II and his daughters Olga, Tatiana and Anastasia, at Livadia, autumn of 1913.

Tatiana 163 cm, Olga 158 cm, Anastasia 143 cm. To Look at my diagram, it says for OTMA followed – 158 cm, something above han 160 for Tatiana, for Maria something above 150 cm, and for Anastasia indeed 143 cm). I didn’t include 1913 points in graphic according to results I had got from Court Gowns in 1913. The best would be if we include each month in diagram, but it would be so complicated, but much more precise.

1917

I tried to find out heights using famous OTMA shaved photo. All is perfect -- same feetline, heads, without hats, year correct. But problem is that we don't have basic height of any of the GD's. Only Olga. We must take her height to be permanent from 1916 on, since she stopped growing, or even it wasn't so noticeable. So, it is 161 cm, plus/ minus more. Plus would be wanted, though.



My subject of iterest are Tatiana and Anastasia, simply because I want to prove to anyone who loves that , let's say, 'proofs', that Maria was missing one. Maria is in this photo taller than Olga, and shorter than Tatiana. The heighest body is to be No5. (1*). Tatiana's height is to be 165/6 cm, even in 1917, while in 1918, she probably was taller. the minimum of the body No5 is indeed 166 cm, according to the Russians. She can't be Anastasia. While I got Anastasia to be 145/6 cm. Body No6 can’t be Tatiana, but according to this estimate, also can’t be Anastasia. Too tall for her. But can’t be Maria, since no one of the teams labeled to be Maria. But it seems also unlikely for Anastasia to grow up over 15 cm, for a year.  But |it still doesn’t mean that she didn’t. She got thin, and by that grew up. So, Anastasia is the remaining solution.
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Offline KarlandZita

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Re: The Imperial Children's heights
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2009, 10:45:08 AM »
Thank you for this fascinating study. I always wanted to know the exact height of the imperial children and here I am determined precisely.
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Offline nena

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Re: The Imperial Children's heights
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 08:22:26 PM »
Thank you for kind remarks, KarlandZita.

Let's go on.



Olga and Anastasia. At Tobolsk, winter 1917/ 1918. It is more than obvious that Anastasia has grown up quite a lot. Her height in this one is to be 155 cm. So, it seems that she had grown up for 10 cm during summer and autumn of the 1917. I would guess that period of her life was the one when she grew up. So, statistics would say that if her height changed for 10 cm per 5 months at minimum (We don't know the exact winter month of the last one, Siberian climate is unmerciful, and it snows earlier than supposed to be), then she grew up 2 cm per a month. That would mean she grew 5 cm more by the summer of 1918, just to be approximately 163 cm. Alexei was taller than his favourite sister, even in the summer of 1917, but hen she probably overstook him, or they two had the same heights.  This photo, according to the one Russian book, one Russ kindly lent me, was taken at Tobolsk in September of 1917. Anastasia is bit taller. And she indeed changed her height in exile.

One notification -- Statistics and that branch of of calculation is not valid, by the definition of itself.

I am still searching for more photos to determine all needed conditional equations. Years are my priority. However, I am trying to prove by some others ways, which GD was missing in the mass grave. Some would say that story is finished. And it is.
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