Author Topic: Czarina of Russia???  (Read 32078 times)

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Offline RHB

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Czarina of Russia???
« on: December 19, 2009, 03:01:26 AM »
Does anyone think (aside from Olga perhaps) that Tatiana could make it as the Czarina of Russia if the need came for her to be perhaps? IMO given how responsible and dutiful and being the people's favorite (if i remember correctly) that she could possibly be able to do a good if not excellent job as Empress! She knew what needed to be done and did it without argument! Opinions? btw i hope i didn't screw up with my posting again if not well I'm sure people will correct to the right thread!
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Offline tatianolishka_

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2009, 11:40:38 AM »
Tatiana is an interesting character. She demonstrated a sense of purpose during her short life and did very well under pressure unlike her elder sister or mother. But the strength required to rule a country was something beyond her grasp. None of the children possessed this strength. Heck, even Nicky didn't have it. It is likely she would have followed her father's example of tsardom - she had no interest in the political nature of her country, nor did she have any other examples of good Tsars in her lifetime.

Added to this, the political atmosphere of the turn of the century. Russia wanted change - something Tatiana could never offer to them. The revolution would have happened wether or not she, Olga, Alexei or even Nicky were rulers. I doubt that Tatiana would have made it in that time era for less than a few days. The people of Russia would never accept a new Tsar, let alone a twenty-something year old girl with no training.

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2009, 01:55:31 PM »
tatianolishka 1, totally agree with you. I'm happy that OTMA fans have a critical and holistic view about this situation.

I think that Russia at that time would not help no one, including the God itself.
Although he could probably help Nicholas II with a powerfull parliament, well-written constitution and Europe-oriented elite, oriented mainly on the consistent liberal reforms. But all what Russia had at that time, if we are talking about for example the period after the February Democratic Revolution, are intelligent, but unprepared to govern the country Kerensky, Lvov, Shingaryov, Miliukov, etc. The main problem was, that all those intelligent people didn't knew what to do with the huge "army" of the Russian peasants (about 90 million).

So, I think that possible governing of Tatiana, the simple Russian girl, who was not prepared to govern the country, would not be long, and finally would ended for her and for the country with bad consequences. Catherine the Great failed, Witte failed, Stolypin failed, Kerensky failed and even the Alexander II failed. Of course, our dear Tatiana finally wouldn't had a success. She was just a girl, with the simple school education and a girl, who was spending all her free time in the hospital playing a bezique with officers.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 02:01:21 PM by Nicolá De Valerón »
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2009, 02:50:05 PM »
imo by the time of the revolution, the big pair's interest was thier immediate family and in being in a sense thier parent's champions...this they were until the end.  All the girls showed thier mettle and a great capacity during captivity. I wonder how many of us would do so well ?

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Offline tatianolishka_

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2009, 03:15:54 PM »
tatianolishka 1, totally agree with you. I'm happy that OTMA fans have a critical and holistic view about this situation.

Thank you, Nicolá, for your kind words.

Quote
So, I think that possible governing of Tatiana, the simple Russian girl, who was not prepared to govern the country, would not be long, and finally would ended for her and for the country with bad consequences. Catherine the Great failed, Witte failed, Stolypin failed, Kerensky failed and even the Alexander II failed. Of course, our dear Tatiana finally wouldn't had a success. She was just a girl, with the simple school education and a girl, who was spending all her free time in the hospital playing a bezique with officers.

Indeed. I also forgot to mention the mental state of the girls - they were terribly juvenile (see Olga's recently published diary) and showed signs of becoming more and more like their reclusive mother. Olga's mental state during the Great War was not sound (mood swings, smashing windows, withdrawal), but she continued to read of her country's decline as the war went on. Olga began to understand the consequences of her father's old-fashioned ideas. Tatiana? Not so.  Her life was spent in the hospitals, watching the wounded return and holding committees to support the war effort. She didn't see how her father had contributed to their downfall.

With such a distorted view of life, it would only be a female version of Nicholas' reign. He was raised in a similar way - not allowed to grow up.

imo by the time of the revolution, the big pair's interest was thier immediate family and in being in a sense thier parent's champions...this they were until the end.  All the girls showed thier mettle and a great capacity during captivity. I wonder how many of us would do so well ?

Sadly, The family only did what millions of others in their country were forced to do every day since the beginning of their lives, with far more luxuries than any of them could have prayed for.

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2009, 03:42:42 PM »
Olga began to understand the consequences of her father's old-fashioned ideas.Tatiana? Not so.  Her life was spent in the hospitals, watching the wounded return and holding committees to support the war effort. She didn't see how her father had contributed to their downfall.

Agree with you. But not only Tatiana, but also Olga were and stayed till the end typical Orthodox and conservative in their views. Something like Russian Nationality, Orthodoxy, Autocracy. Nothing about liberalism or democraсy.

imo by the time of the revolution, the big pair's interest was thier immediate family and in being in a sense thier parent's champions...this they were until the end.  All the girls showed thier mettle and a great capacity during captivity. I wonder how many of us would do so well ?

Dear BlessOTMA, you are right, of course they both with Olga were very diligent and good girls, devoted till the end to their beloved parents. And this is great. And I appreciate it. I also appreciate kind people. But the question was about Tatiana as a possible ruler of the country. On my opinion this is very different thing.

To be just a kind person, is not enough to be the leader of a country. And not just in a quiet European civilised country, with the established rules, transparent laws and with the democratically exchangeable elites, but in Russia. I think you understand the difference;))

Only in several cases, Tatiana as a possible leader of Russia, could manage the country: powerfull backing of a parlament and democratic independent government, constitution and powerful political elites. Unfortunately, all these important things during Tatiana's life were missing.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 03:49:24 PM by Nicolá De Valerón »
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline Tina Laroche

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2009, 04:58:15 PM »
With such a distorted view of life, it would only be a female version of Nicholas' reign. He was raised in a similar way - not allowed to grow up.

IMO, that's a really good point. I totally agree. I also agree with - how do you spell it once again? - Nicolá de Valeron. =D

Btw, I've read (either on here or on some other forums) how some people say Tatiana would have made a good Empress and give examples with how she ordered her siblings around. Well, I personally think there is a big difference between bossing your sisters and ruling a country... =/

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2009, 05:33:53 PM »
"Romanov History Buff" :  Realizing that you are relatively new, I would kindly point out that your original projection posted here on this thread, would be a certain impossibility.  Under the existing "Laws of Succession," NONE  (not one) of those sisters would have EVER been within a hope of the Russian Imperial Throne.  This has been pointed out SO many times on this forum. You need to research that.  (Yes, I see your words, "perhaps" and "possibly" and I understand/respect that this is undoubtedly a wish-fulfillment position/personal opinion that you offer.)  AP
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 05:43:12 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2009, 06:17:16 PM »
"Romanov History Buff" :  Realizing that you are relatively new, I would kindly point out that your original projection posted here on this thread, would be a certain impossibility.  Under the existing "Laws of Succession," NONE  (not one) of those sisters would have EVER been within a hope of the Russian Imperial Throne.  This has been pointed out SO many times on this forum. You need to research that.  (Yes, I see your words, "perhaps" and "possibly" and I understand/respect that this is undoubtedly a wish-fulfillment position/personal opinion that you offer.)  AP

aleksandr pavlovich, I think you take it too seriously. Let our dear and maybe not so knowledgeable as you at that question girls to discuss possible Tatiana's Russian government. Of course formally she could not be a tsarina. But I think nothing prevents us of discussing about it.

Moreover, as I know you are not a moderator, or something else.
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline RHB

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2009, 06:34:55 PM »
thank you Nicola for pointing that out and i hoped i spelled that right btw! And didn't her father have plans to change the law of succession whereby granted if Alexei couldn't rule that Olga could (or i guess one of the other 3)? I'm saying if the law had been changed where women could (once again) rule Russia... who says Tatiana couldn't? Sophie Buxhoeveden mentioned that she would always follow Olga's lead but she could and would make up her mind faster then Olga if the need called for it... or something like that! So I'm just saying!

Actually what she said was: "She had a less strong character than Olga Nikolaievna whose lead she would always follow, but she could make up her mind in an emergency quicker than her elder sister, and never lost her head
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Offline wox24

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2009, 06:36:47 PM »
tatianolishka 1, totally agree with you. I'm happy that OTMA fans have a critical and holistic view about this situation.

I think that Russia at that time would not help no one, including the God itself.
Although he could probably help Nicholas II with a powerfull parliament, well-written constitution and Europe-oriented elite, oriented mainly on the consistent liberal reforms. But all what Russia had at that time, if we are talking about for example the period after the February Democratic Revolution, are intelligent, but unprepared to govern the country Kerensky, Lvov, Shingaryov, Miliukov, etc. The main problem was, that all those intelligent people didn't knew what to do with the huge "army" of the Russian peasants (about 90 million).

So, I think that possible governing of Tatiana, the simple Russian girl, who was not prepared to govern the country, would not be long, and finally would ended for her and for the country with bad consequences. Catherine the Great failed, Witte failed, Stolypin failed, Kerensky failed and even the Alexander II failed. Of course, our dear Tatiana finally wouldn't had a success. She was just a girl, with the simple school education and a girl, who was spending all her free time in the hospital playing a bezique with officers.

It is more difficult as you think. Only USSR had more than 200 nationalities from which a lot of them they have hated each other. Plus different religions, consuetudines etc. etc.. Or Russian climate and geography..., find me so big country with so different geography and such many people in the West in these time (and not only in these time). Besides Russian (of course not only Russian) have some other character, you cannot compare them with West people. Russia is not Moscow or St. Peterburg. And "intelligents" have wanted to lead the country as in the West. It is stupidity. Look, a some time ago there was a questionnaire in the net about the most distinguished and the most popular man in the Russian history. The winner was.....YOSIF VISSARIONOVICH STALIN! Stalin is enough popular in Russia, even Orthodox christians and Russian nationalists like him. Russian hated liberals and similar politics, they do not like West parliament system.  Parliament have never functioned in Russian history. The fact is that Duma not decide, it approbate what president says. Simply said, Russia is some other culture and we cannot compare it with West.

So, I think Russian Tsars and people as Stolypin and Witte were very good leaders. Lenin and company had to use terror in their politic.  Tsars did not need it.

IMHO Tatiana would be a good Czarina. Because we must not forgot that she would be prepared on her role. Plus her character was very good for this position.

P.S. I hope we will understand my comment good.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 06:44:39 PM by wox24 »

Offline RHB

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2009, 06:47:41 PM »
IMHO Tatiana would be a good Czarina. Because we must not forgot that she would be prepared on her role. Plus her character was very good for this position.

thank you again this time to wox and i agree i think with her character she would be make a good czarina... especially after going through what she went through she most likely would have learned what happens to "poor" rulers I'm sure there would have been/were a lot of lessons learned in captivity.
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aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2009, 06:53:47 PM »
Re Post #8: Thank you, Nicloa, for your kind observations!  Agreed, that within parameters, personal observations are always certainly appropriate, and in this case, you come nicely to the crux of the matter in your statement that, "Of course formally she could not be a tsarina."  Definitely agreed!  Regards,  AP
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 07:14:39 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2009, 07:03:35 PM »
tatianolishka 1, totally agree with you. I'm happy that OTMA fans have a critical and holistic view about this situation.

I think that Russia at that time would not help no one, including the God itself.
Although he could probably help Nicholas II with a powerfull parliament, well-written constitution and Europe-oriented elite, oriented mainly on the consistent liberal reforms. But all what Russia had at that time, if we are talking about for example the period after the February Democratic Revolution, are intelligent, but unprepared to govern the country Kerensky, Lvov, Shingaryov, Miliukov, etc. The main problem was, that all those intelligent people didn't knew what to do with the huge "army" of the Russian peasants (about 90 million).

So, I think that possible governing of Tatiana, the simple Russian girl, who was not prepared to govern the country, would not be long, and finally would ended for her and for the country with bad consequences. Catherine the Great failed, Witte failed, Stolypin failed, Kerensky failed and even the Alexander II failed. Of course, our dear Tatiana finally wouldn't had a success. She was just a girl, with the simple school education and a girl, who was spending all her free time in the hospital playing a bezique with officers.

It is more difficult as you think. Only USSR had more than 200 nationalities from which a lot of them they have hated each other. Plus different religions, consuetudines etc. etc.. Or Russian climate and geography..., find me so big country with so different geography and such many people in the West in these time (and not only in these time). Besides Russian (of course not only Russian) have some other character, you cannot compare them with West people. Russia is not Moscow or St. Peterburg. And "intelligents" have wanted to lead the country as in the West. It is stupidity. Look, a some time ago there was a questionnaire in the net about the most distinguished and the most popular man in the Russian history. The winner was.....YOSIF VISSARIONOVICH STALIN! Stalin is enough popular in Russia, even Orthodox christians and Russian nationalists like him. Russian hated liberals and similar politics, they do not like West parliament system.  Parliament have never functioned in Russian history. The fact is that Duma not decide, it approbate what president says. Simply said, Russia is some other culture and we cannot compare it with West.

So, I think Russian Tsars and people as Stolypin and Witte were very good leaders. Lenin and company had to use terror in their politic.  Tsars did not need it.

IMHO Tatiana would be a good Czarina. Because we must not forgot that she would be prepared on her role. Plus her character was very good for this position.

P.S. I hope we will understand my comment good.

Yes, I've heard you clearly. Now I hope, you hear me clearly. I hope;)

Wox24, to be honest with you I don't like people who so undisputedly talking for the whole Russians. Did you asked evryone Russian personally about his "anitliberalism" and "antidemocratic" mood. How about Novgorod and Pskov democracy republics (12-16 centures) before they were conquered by Moscow? That people also didn't like democracy?!

I also have heard thousand times about "special Russian way" - Orthodoxy, Autocrasy and Russian nationality. But this endless vertical power doesn't work. Awful roads, men life expectancy of 59 years, dying villages, endless emigration, degradation of the population, lopsided economy, etc..........FOR centures.......

If you can not take into account those things, and like to listen for centures (starting from Ivan IV) only sweet slogans " Orthodoxy, Autocrasy and Russian nationality", to listen things about "special climate" you are welcome. This is your choise. But please, do not speak for the entire population of the Russians. Please.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 07:06:17 PM by Nicolá De Valerón »
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Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2009, 09:22:42 PM »
Quote
..... But not only Tatiana, but also Olga were and stayed till the end typical Orthodox and conservative in their views. Something like Russian Nationality, Orthodoxy, Autocracy. Nothing about liberalism or democracy.
Indeed
Quote
imo by the time of the revolution, the big pair's interest was thier immediate family and in being in a sense thier parent's champions...this they were until the end.  All the girls showed thier mettle and a great capacity during captivity. I wonder how many of us would do so well ?
Dear BlessOTMA, you are right, of course they both with Olga were very diligent and good girls, devoted till the end to their beloved parents. And this is great. And I appreciate it. I also appreciate kind people. But the question was about Tatiana as a possible ruler of the country. On my opinion this is very different thing..
I agree Nicolá...and I with agree with your other comments here. Even if they were brought up with leadership in mind, they would have been taught only  the Autocracy mode of goverment. Perhaps the chance for a democracy to develop in a relatively  peaceful manner was thrown away even before they were born, when Alexander III tore up his father's order for a Duma.I just always speak up if thier accomplishments are seen as small simply because they were family based...I have to admire them...or anyone who went though what they did and functioned as well as they did. Threatening someone's family is the number 1 way to break someone and here the whole family was threaten, day after day for many months. Remarkable.  But you are right ...thier goodness is not the question on the thread.
Quote
Only in several cases, Tatiana as a possible leader of Russia, could manage the country: powerful backing of a parliament and democratic independent government, constitution and powerful political elites. Unfortunately, all these important things during Tatiana's life were missing.
and by then there was no hope to develop them in time. It was 6 million men too late

"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna