Author Topic: Czarina of Russia???  (Read 31678 times)

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Offline wox24

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2009, 03:24:49 AM »
Yes, I've heard you clearly. Now I hope, you hear me clearly. I hope;)

Wox24, to be honest with you I don't like people who so undisputedly talking for the whole Russians. Did you asked evryone Russian personally about his "anitliberalism" and "antidemocratic" mood. How about Novgorod and Pskov democracy republics (12-16 centures) before they were conquered by Moscow? That people also didn't like democracy?!

I also have heard thousand times about "special Russian way" - Orthodoxy, Autocrasy and Russian nationality. But this endless vertical power doesn't work. Awful roads, men life expectancy of 59 years, dying villages, endless emigration, degradation of the population, lopsided economy, etc..........FOR centures.......

If you can not take into account those things, and like to listen for centures (starting from Ivan IV) only sweet slogans " Orthodoxy, Autocrasy and Russian nationality", to listen things about "special climate" you are welcome. This is your choise. But please, do not speak for the entire population of the Russians. Please.



You do not know facts. Between 1991 - 1999 were liberals in the Russia (a in this time have begun problems which you work). Gajdar, Chubajs etc. Rubel failed 2x, the industry, the agricultural and the science were destroyed. Life radical worsen in these times, unemployment begun to be tragical. I show you one example. My husband is Russian (so I have family from Kyiv to Ural). He is an engineer who worked in company. So, his salary was better than many people. But his salary was similar as normal (I think) a drilling machine in the begin of Jeltsin gouvernment. When his a bed breaked away, he had to repair by hisself, he had to buy practical only basic foodstuff  etc. His life was improved later but only a bit.  It did not exist during USSR acording his life. And I replay, he was better salary than many people.The life began to be much better in Putins times. So, do you think Russian have some reason to like liberals? Go to Russian internet and read comments on Gajdars death. And I do not think nationalists sites but sites as www.rbc.ru, www. pravda.ru and similar. There are often comments of people with university not "plebs".
Next. Russia have enough moslim people. And islam with liberalism... . Look at Chechnya. First Basayev led now Karimov. And any liberalism and similar. Only "hard hand", moslims and liberalism is as water and fire. Moslims (but not so fanatic) have in Ingushetia, Dagestan, Bashkorstan and Tatarstan too. As soon as Jeltsins liberalism began, there were begun separastic veins.
And do not agree on Siberia.
So there are liberals so reputable in the West. If Jeltsins people would not false elections, the winners would be .... communists.

BTW, nobody says about Orthodoxy and Novogorod etc. were town as Germans hansa. They were trading towns.

Offline Olga Maria

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2009, 03:29:14 AM »
Tatiana would have been a good Tsaritsa in the fields of philanthropic activities and giving parties for the society (I’m sure she loved parties, too, and not very shy to appear on public as what she proved in wartime). In political side, she’s a no-no.

If Alexei had not been born, Nicholas would have changed the succession laws, as what Sergei Witte said in his memoirs (which he was afraid of to happen).



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Offline wox24

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2009, 04:32:14 AM »
succinct prices and salary:

the salary in the 1992... 7 dolars (my husband), 4 dolars university profesor.
the price of drilling machine... 70 dolars (seventhy)
husband price in 94 ... 20 dolars (in University), 98 70 dolars, than again 20 dolars... rubel failed
according Putins time..... 800 (eight hundred) dolars.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 04:37:15 AM by wox24 »

Offline wox24

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2009, 04:39:07 AM »
Tatiana would have been a good Tsaritsa in the fields of philanthropic activities and giving parties for the society (I’m sure she loved parties, too, and not very shy to appear on public as what she proved in wartime). In political side, she’s a no-no.

If Alexei had not been born, Nicholas would have changed the succession laws, as what Sergei Witte said in his memoirs (which he was afraid of to happen).




I agree. ;) I think Nicholass family did not changed the succession laws too.

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2009, 06:13:30 AM »
Dear, Wox24.

"Do not wake a radical-liberal in me;))" Elisabeth know, what I'm talking about.

I will surprise you, but I know a lot about Russia, maybe too a lot.
After your words about Trotsky, and about Novgorod as a "simple trading town" I cannot say the same thing about you.

All that you wrote in the last post is a typical propaganda opinion. Sadly, but Ivan IV and Joseph Stalin made an exelent work.
And it's sad for me, that majority of Russians thinking the same way as you. Russia has no future.

Democracy and liberalism are the not the salary, supermarkets, etc.
It's you personal freeedom, feeling yourself as a human being and a right to choise.
Of course, after an endless totalitarian sleeping of 70 years, everything that people wanted in 1991 was just products in the stores....
But this is not a democracy.

Oil prices in 1991 -  11 dollars per barrel, respectively salary.
Oil prices in 1998 -  11 dollars per barrel. respectively salary.
Oil prices in 2008 -  135 dollars per barrel. respectively increase of salary (remnants of what Putin left Russians)

No role of Putin and others. And state Russian propoganda TV doesn't say it. Do not watch it. This is farmful for the health.

These would be my last words on this topic.
Sorry for a little bit rough tone.

Dear Sarah and Forum admin, sorry for a little off-topic, but I had to say it.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 06:17:09 AM by Nicolá De Valerón »
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline wox24

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2009, 07:03:23 AM »
After your words about Trotsky, and about Novgorod as a "simple trading town" I cannot say the same thing about you.
Nicolá, compare Novgorod and Russia. ;)

Democracy and liberalism are the not the salary, supermarkets, etc.
It's you personal freeedom, feeling yourself as a human being and a right to choise.
Of course, after an endless totalitarian sleeping of 70 years, everything that people wanted in 1991 was just products in the stores....
But this is not a democracy.
I can only agree with your text: "It's you personal freeedom, feeling yourself as a human being and a right to choise." But you are wrong in the others. I do not think a big salary, super supermarkets etc. I think normal life without problems whether I can buy something, without abhorrence about my life, without anxiety about future my children and similar.  Or do you think you can feel as human body when  you must pick off  things for you from garbage or stand pad? Not exclusive salary, a lot of things in the supermarket. I agree, it is not demokracy and you undesrtood me bad.

Oil prices in 1991 -  11 dollars per barrel, respectively salary.
Oil prices in 1998 -  11 dollars per barrel. respectively salary.
Oil prices in 2008 -  135 dollars per barrel. respectively increase of salary (remnants of what Putin left Russians)
I know it.  Putin made smaller Yeltsins anarchy in all sectors etc. And he used for it oil prices. But salary began to increase early than in 2008 year. Simply said... Putin is "less evil" ;)


BTW, I am Slovak and live in Slovakia. I do not like communism I am fan of Nicholas II. ;)

But I would like to come back to Tatiana. In regard of different people, religions etc. in Russia I think Tsar must be resolved but one must know to make compromise as well, one must discuss with people, one has not be nizy and one must know to pick out good collaborators. I do not know as latest two things but IMHO the other things only Tatiana fulfiled. What do you think?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 07:15:04 AM by wox24 »

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2009, 08:02:38 AM »
I do not like communism I am fan of Nicholas II. ;)

Breaks a promise, but,

Dear Wox24,

These your final words were as a tasty balm to my liberal soul;)
It sounds something like - "anticommunism connected them;)"
Connected incompatible monarchist and a liberal.

Sorry again for little bit a rough words.
Have a good evening in a Free, Democratic and Liberal Slovakia
with both a diverse economy and civil liberties.

Nicola.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 08:06:16 AM by Nicolá De Valerón »
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline wox24

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2009, 08:14:50 AM »
I do not like communism I am fan of Nicholas II. ;)

Breaks a promise, but,

Dear Wox24,

These your final words were as a tasty balm to my liberal soul;)
It sounds something like - "anticommunism connected them;)"
Connected incompatible monarchist and a liberal.

Sorry again for little bit a rough words.
Have a good evening in a Free, Democratic and Liberal Slovakia
with both a diverse economy and civil liberties.

Nicola.

Nicola, I do not understand, how is  repugnancy between my anticommunism and respecting  of Nicholas II and his reign ?

I am afraid, you are wrong with Free, Democratic and Liberal Slovakia. :(  But this is not thread for it.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 08:23:05 AM by wox24 »

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2009, 09:47:11 AM »
Dear Sarah and forum admin, sorry again,
but I think we have a very difficult "situation";)

Wox24, you missunderstood me, and not in the first time.
I mean that of course it is natural and understandable anticommunism and monarchism (to like Nicholas II).
Although I have a very different views, but I can understand it.
Please look carefully in my words and do not distort it.

About "Nonfree, Undemocratic and Illiberal" Slovakia. Then why do you live there?! Why are you mutilate yourself?!

Political and civil liberties, according to Freedom house in 2009.

Slovakia
Capital: Bratislava
Population: 5,400,000
Political Rights Score: 1
Civil Liberties Score: 1
Status: Free

Russia
Capital: Moscow
Population: 141,900,000
Political Rights Score: 6
Civil Liberties Score: 5
Status: Not Free

Welcome to "Free, Liberal and Democratic" Mother Russia! Russia are waiting for you!
Or have a good and calm evening in "Nonfree, Undemocratic and Illiberal Slovakia".
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 09:50:04 AM by Nicolá De Valerón »
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline wox24

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2009, 10:40:41 AM »
Dear Sarah and forum admin, sorry again,
but I think we have a very difficult "situation";)

Wox24, you missunderstood me, and not in the first time.
I mean that of course it is natural and understandable anticommunism and monarchism (to like Nicholas II).
Although I have a very different views, but I can understand it.
Please look carefully in my words and do not distort it.

About "Nonfree, Undemocratic and Illiberal" Slovakia. Then why do you live there?! Why are you mutilate yourself?!

Political and civil liberties, according to Freedom house in 2009.

Slovakia
Capital: Bratislava
Population: 5,400,000
Political Rights Score: 1
Civil Liberties Score: 1
Status: Free

Russia
Capital: Moscow
Population: 141,900,000
Political Rights Score: 6
Civil Liberties Score: 5
Status: Not Free

Welcome to "Free, Liberal and Democratic" Mother Russia! Russia are waiting for you!
Or have a good and calm evening in "Nonfree, Undemocratic and Illiberal Slovakia".


My answer will not here but you are wrong.

Offline wox24

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2009, 11:22:19 AM »
And I am ending to discussion about it in these thread. ;)

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2009, 11:36:26 AM »
Dear Wox24,

As I know, you are not a moderator or admin to establish the forum rules or stop discussions.

Ok,
I also will not continue this discussion, however I really want to continue.
It's a pity, that your arguments are over. I like to discuss.
In the future, if you don't have a good arguments, please do not start a discussion.
As I clearly remember, you the first answered to my post, not me.

Take care of yourself,
Sorry for a little bit rough words.
Regards.
Nicola.

P.S. I love Russia and Slovakia and all other countries in the entire world, and moreover, in the entire Universe.
But I can't say the same thing about governmants, including developed countries;)

Sarah and forum admin, sorry again.
Sorry also Romanov History Buff, that we turned your innocent topic about Tatiana to political dispute.
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline wox24

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2009, 12:26:35 PM »
So, back to Tatiana. I replay my idea because it vanished in our discussion with Nicola. ;) It is a pity my English is not such level to discuss better.

In regard of different people, religions etc. in Russia I think Tsar must be resolved but one must know to make compromise as well, one must discuss with people, one has not be nizy and one must know to pick out good collaborators. I do not know as latest two things but IMHO the other things only Tatiana fulfiled. What do you think?

Offline Proud_Olga

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2009, 01:39:32 PM »
About "Nonfree, Undemocratic and Illiberal" Slovakia. Then why do you live there?! Why are you mutilate yourself?!

Sorry to bring that again, as apparently that discussion was over but perhaps Wox24 still remains in Slovakia because she likes that country, despite its flaws. Living in a country doesn't prevent from being critical about it.

Anyway, I must agree Nicolá's first post about Tatiana. What made Nicholas II's fall, despite his inability to rule, was also probably the education the Romanovs received. If we admit that Tatiana received the education Nicholas, or his brother Alexei, received that was not one to open the minds to a change in the country. The revolution would have happened, no matter what.
Tatiana's royal play site.
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Offline tatianolishka_

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Re: Czarina of Russia???
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2009, 01:47:32 PM »
Don't worry, Wox, I can assure you that English is a second language for quite a few on this forum, and I applaud your courage for discussing in spite of it. Very few seem to be able to do that.

one must know to pick out good collaborators.

Tatiana seems to have been heavily influenced by her mother.

For by all accounts it seems that her friends and company were all "chosen" by the Empress, if you will. Alexandra selected her children's playmates, set up the hospital where the girls worked. The only friends she "chose" were some of the soldiers who came in - Dmitri Malama, for example. Although even he had to receive approval from Alix.
From Sophia Buxhoeveden (not the most reliable source, yet nonetheless): She was sociable, and friends would have been welcome, but no young girls were ever asked to the Palace. The Empress thought that the four sisters should be able to entertain one another.

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one must know to make compromise as well

All of the children could compromise, however Tatiana was more of a messenger than the one doing the actual compromising among the family, bringing suggestions from the children to their mother and letting both parties come to their own decisions. I'm sure she could compromise and likely did so on occasion, however there is nothing to suggest that she was more reasonable than any of her sisters. :) .

Quote
one must discuss with people

Each of the girls could carry on a conversation. Olga, Maria and Anastasia was friendly and open, speaking to whomever would listen. From Lili Dehn: With [Tatiana], as with her mother, shyness and reserve were accounted as pride, but, once you knew her and had gained her affection, this reserve disappeared, and the real Tatiana became apparent. She was a poetical creature, always yearning for the ideal, and dreaming of great friendships which might be hers.

The girls certainly leaned how to converse more easily with the people as she reached captivity, however these events would never have happened in a scenario that Tatiana became Tsaritsa.

Tatiana seemed to have little confidence in her abilities to lead. Again from Sophie, with regard to the comittees she lead: The young Grand Duchess took the greatest interest in it and, young though she was, had quantities of papers sent her every day, which she went over with her mother's help, making notes and writing her decisions. Tatiana would have needed so much guidance that the country could not have provided. Tatiana would not only replicate the reign of her father, but it would have been riddled with the influence of her mother. It would have been an exact replica of his reign.

Quote
If we admit that Tatiana received the education Nicholas, or his brother Alexei, received that was not one to open the minds to a change in the country. The revolution would have happened, no matter what.

Exactly.

Tatiana had many redeemable qualities - she was kind, caring, an example to her sisters, her mother's pride and joy, and would have made an absolutely beautiful young lady had she been given the chance. However none of these make her an acceptable tsarina.

Sorry for posting so often, I keep thinking of new things to add.