Author Topic: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics  (Read 134027 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Namarolf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 62
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2004, 02:06:23 PM »
Thanks, Bob -but my "theological" question remains... As far as I know (may be I am wrong), the Abbey is a religious site belonging to the Church of England -so I guess the mentioned statue has no religious meaning attached, at least for the Church of England? I don't want to sound disrespectful, but in such a case, would it be possible, for instance, to place there a statue of the Queen Mother or Lady Di as well?

I found rather interesting the comments about Philip's going back to Orthodoxy... I know the British Law forbids royals to become Roman Catholics or marry them -but what about Orthodoxy? May be this is not the forum to ask about it, but what if a British royal becomes Orthodox or marries an Orthodox person, like the Hesse sisters did? Would he/she be excluded as well from the line of succession? Were the Hesse sisters (and Alexandra's children)  still in the British line of succession in 1917, when Alexandra and her children were denied entrance in the U. K.?

Offline Janet_Ashton

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2004, 02:42:04 PM »
Quote
Thanks, Bob -but my "theological" question remains... As far as I know (may be I am wrong), the Abbey is a religious site belonging to the Church of England -so I guess the mentioned statue has no religious meaning attached, at least for the Church of England? I don't want to sound disrespectful, but in such a case, would it be possible, for instance, to place there a statue of the Queen Mother or Lady Di as well?



It has from what I have read a definite religious meaning. I am extremely hazy on theological points relating to the Church of England (though members of my family have been and still are members of the Church of England, I was not baptised or actively raised as a Christian; I actually know more about Catholicism and Orthodoxy as a result of my historical studies) but I do not think the Church would recognise any post-Reformation saints. Ella and others are there simply as Christians who died for their faith in the twentieth century. In Ella's case, the latter definition is not strictly correct, though I am aware of the symbolic arguments relating to the Tsarist regime as one which officially promoted the Orthodox faith. She is supposed to represent those who died for their reliion under the Soviet regime; others there are victims of the Nazis or other forms of political extremism. By that token, it is quite unlikely that the Queen Mum would make it :-)

Quote
I found rather interesting the comments about Philip's going back to Orthodoxy... I know the British Law forbids royals to become Roman Catholics or marry them -but what about Orthodoxy? May be this is not the forum to ask about it, but what if a British royal becomes Orthodox or marries an Orthodox person, like the Hesse sisters did? Would he/she be excluded as well from the line of succession? Were the Hesse sisters (and Alexandra's children)  still in the British line of succession in 1917, when Alexandra and her children were denied entrance in the U. K.?


Yes, they were in the line of succession. Orthodoxy has never been excluded as I understand it; the exclusion of Catholicism is a historical rather than reigious issue, and the question of Orthodoxy didn't actually arise until 1947....

Janet

Offline Janet_Ashton

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2004, 03:30:45 PM »
Quote


 Orthodoxy has never been excluded as I understand it; the exclusion of Catholicism is a historical rather than reigious issue, and the question of Orthodoxy didn't actually arise until 1947....

Janet


1874 more precisely I suppose :-) But to clarify, I was thinking of the immediate heir....

Janet

Offline Namarolf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 62
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2004, 03:40:15 PM »
Thank you very much for your kind answer, Janet! It is of course most unlikely that it may happen, but I can't help wondering, what if Charles becomes an Orthodox?  :D

Offline darius

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2004, 04:50:38 AM »
The memorial in Westminster Abbey is a window and not a statue. It is one of a number of images conmemorating 20th Century Martyrs/Saints. In relation to your query the Abbey of Westminster is Church of England and so rather more High Anglican (Anglo-Catholic) - images of Saints are not forbidden unlike graven images of Christ or the Virgin etc to which people might pray or intercede.
On another point Roman Catholics are forbidden to succeed to the British Throne since the Act of Settlement which sought to ensure the maintenance of the reformed Protestant Church. The Heir to the throne must therefore specifically marry a person who is not a member of the Church of Rome or be barred from the succession as in the case of Prince Michael of Kent. However the children of such a union are still entitled to succeed having been brought up within the Anglican faith. Note The present Duchess of Kents conversion to Catholicism did not affect her husbands succession rights nor those of her children who remained Anglican and had not married Roman Catholics.

Offline Ilana

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • I love any info on VMH
    • View Profile
    • Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2004, 06:38:17 PM »
I believe that there have been posts with pics... I have a pic, but have no clue how to post.
So long and thanks for all the fish

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4658
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2004, 07:04:53 PM »
Instructions for posting pictures are in the General Column on the main forum page

Offline Sarai

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 999
    • View Profile
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2004, 07:17:18 AM »
Quote
Does anybody have pix of Ella's coffin or even of her body?


Thomas,
There is a picture of Ella's coffin posted under "Reburials" in the "Imperial Family and Other Romanovs" thread.

Offline Greg_King

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 588
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
    • Atlantis Magazine
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2004, 07:32:10 AM »
And there are photographs of the victims at Alapayevsk in Sokolov, and also in O'Connor's book "The Sokolov Investigation."

Greg King

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2004, 07:48:40 AM »
Instructions for posting pictures are in the General Column on the main forum page[/quote]

Dear Forum Administrator, I too have been trying to figure how to post some pictures and have tried to get the instrutions from the main forum page, but for some reason I am denied access to that page. Whenever I log in, I can only get access to the most recent page of the AP discussion board.... I tried several times, to no avail. Would you please copy and paste these instructions again, into a recent post, or tell me how else I can get access to the General Column... Thanks,
Helen

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2004, 07:54:25 AM »


The top of her coffin is clear glass and you can see her body.  Her face is covered by a lace hankerchief and her hands and feet have mitts on them... but you can see the outlines of her face -- it's very, VERY spooky.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ilana,

Thanks for the info about Ella's body. That does sound very morbid, although I think it may be fascinating to see... Did they preserve the body in some way?

Helen


Offline Nick_Nicholson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 199
  • www.objectofvirtue.com
    • View Profile
    • Nicholas B. A. Nicholson
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2004, 03:18:06 PM »
Dear Everyone,

It appears that "officially" Grand Duchess ELizabeth's relics are NOT going back to Russia permanently.  They will return to Russia from July 17th until February 2005, when they will be returned to Jerusalem.

I have a call in to the Cathedral to find out more in detail.  It appears that the Grand Duchess St. Elizabeth of Russia will be honored in a service at the Peter and Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, will then be venerated in the crypt which was prepared for her in the Martha and Mary Convent in Moscow, and will finally be taken to the groundbreaking of a new cathedral to be built at Alapayevsk.  

The relics will then be returned to the Cathedral on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

Gossip in New York says that this "tour" is a sham, and that the body is being returned permanently because the Cathedral is near all of the fighting and violence in the West Bank.  

This rare cooperation between the ROCA and the Moscow Patriarchate is out of a mutual concern that harm will come to the relics of the Grand Duchess, canonized in both churches.

Fascinating!  I for one, plan to try to visit Moscow.

Nick
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Nick_Nicholson »
Nick Nicholson
New York City

Offline Reed

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 125
  • Nothing like a good discussion!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2004, 04:28:35 PM »
Nick,
I have a question to which you may know the answer.  It's a little off this subject, but I can't find the thread in which to address it.  I have study the Orthodox church and understand it's basic beliefs and difference here in the US.  However, I can't remember the reason for the division in the Moscow Episcopate and the ROCOR.  I'm thinking it has something to do with authority....but....it's gone from my mind.  Hopefully, you can help. It's unfortunate when such important things are happening in Russia that encompasses the church, that the groups cannot cooperate better.    :o I say that realizing that there isn't much cooperation even on smaller issues here in the US.

Offline Nick_Nicholson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 199
  • www.objectofvirtue.com
    • View Profile
    • Nicholas B. A. Nicholson
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2004, 08:26:33 PM »
Reed,

It is extremely complicated, but the basic reason is this; after the Revolution, and the assassination of the Emperor, the church was in a quandry--there was no Emperor, and therefore, no head of the Church.  

The Communist government deeply restricted the influence and authority of the Orthodox Episcopate, and the Communist leaders appointed collaboratist priests who supported Communist doctrine and altered the Orthodox ritual.

Outside of Russia, loyalist and conservative Orthodox priests from the Russian tradition organized to continue the Russian Orthodox Church as it existed under Imperial authority.  Since there was no clear head of the Church, a "Patriarch in Exile" was elected as head of the Church.  In this period, the OCA broke away as well, as did many national branches of the Russian Church abroad (Russian Church in France, Germany, Belgium, etc. -- all Russian Churches who did not acknowledge the Soviet regime.)

During the Second World War, Stalin allowed the churches to open again, and I believe (but I'm not sure) appointed the first Soviet "Patriarch."

Since the fall of Communism, the Churches has been in a careful state of potential entente--their differences are largely political, and ocasionally financial (they argue over real estate a lot.).  ROCOR feels that the Church in Russia is still filled with collaboratists, and the ROC in Moscow feels that ROCOR are traitors who abandoned the Church in its moment of need, as it struggled to exist under Soviet authority.   They are both right, and they are both wrong.

Now, I may have the specifics wrong, but that is the gist.

Best,

Nick
Nick Nicholson
New York City

Offline jfkhaos

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2004, 07:38:14 AM »
Has anyone found any information on the proposed church at Alapayevsk?  Will it be something similar to the church in Ekaterinburg (not architectually, but to honor the murdered Romanovs who died in Alapayevsk?)

Thanks!