Author Topic: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics  (Read 134028 times)

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Offline Louise

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2004, 10:05:39 AM »
Nick, thank you for the simple and uncomplicated explaination of the schism in the Orthodox Church.

Louise
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Offline Reed

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2004, 10:32:20 AM »
Nick,
Thanks for the synopsis.  I remember reading some of those details now.  Just couldn't find the book I needed to clarify things.  Of course, books don't always cover what it is happening in actual reality.  Hopefully, the church will be able to set aside their differences and unite once again.

Offline Ilana

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2004, 11:57:48 AM »
It's certainly a sham of a reason to remove the relics.  There is really not much more fighting going on in the West Bank than ever there was...the press has just become more obssessed with it.  Anyhow, it's in East Jerusalem, which has been a bit shakey for over a decade.
So long and thanks for all the fish

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2004, 01:53:49 AM »
Thanks, Nick, for the rather concise history of an extremely complicated subject.
To add further history on the subject:
Peter I abolished the Moscow Patriarcate in 1721, replacing it with the Holy Synod, on the level of a cabinet ministry, with a lay "minister" the Chief Procurator.
In this entity, the Emperor held temporal power over the Church, but despite Rodger's rather odd thoughts, not matters spitual orf of dogma.

The HS elected a new patriarch [Tikhon] in 1917, but he fell afoul of the communists & again, it was abolished until Stalin re-established a "collaborationist" patriarchate in 1943. The guess here is that he need  the church support in the war effort.
As for the Patriarchate itself,  Moscow is just one of 14 Orthodox patriarchates.  Greece, i.e. Constantinople being 1st among equals.
This gets even more complicated as the Emperpror's role  of "Protector" of the Holy Places in Jerusalem was legally inherited by the Soviet regime. An odd
circumnstance to say the least. And much distuped.
This gets to Ella's grave.  As I recall, for the above reason, it was not placed under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Church. [{perhaps this has changed].
As for her eventual re-internment, is the former Moscow convent actually in any shape for that?
Personally, I think she should end up back in Jerusalem.



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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2004, 06:22:27 AM »
As it was Ella's wish to be buried in her convent, imo the time is now right to see that that happens.

Sunny

Offline Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2004, 10:09:57 AM »
Robert,

The Russian church in Gethsemane was the property of the Russian Orthodox Chuirch in Exile until last year, when the Israeli government acknowledged that all former Russian Church properties in Israel belonged to the Russian State.

The church and its contents were forcibly returned to the Moscow Patriarchate.  Nuns tied themeselves into the crypt, refusing to leave the church, and had to be removed by force.  It was very painful for all concerned--the Patriarchate has, however mede overtures for reunification, and at this point, they are making efforts.  The reunification of the churches will not happen soon, but both sides agree that it must, and will happen in the future.

Best,

Nick

PS -- A massive restoration project is underway at the Convent to restore the church and the various outbuildings, including the children's hospital, and the home for women.  I believe that they want Ella back to draw pilgrims to the church who will bring money to help the restoration.  I think Elizaveta Feodorovna would rather be back in Moscow near her sisters and the poor of Moscow, myself, and she did say in her will  that she wanted to be in the crypt of the Church.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Nick_Nicholson »
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Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2004, 10:47:52 AM »
Nick is correct as far as Israel turning over ROCA property to the Russians.

However, this business about a 'will' is nonsense.  Her wishes were to be buried where Christ walked, which is a long way from Muscovy.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by _Rodger_ »
WARNING!!!!  This post may be hazardous to one's sense of things.  Read with caution.

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2004, 05:54:53 AM »

Thomas, my son runs a breaking news site, so I'm around news wires a lot. Haven't read anything about this...what a huge surprise.
How lovely that you were so close to Ella, for a few minutes. Does anyone know if she will remain in Russia?

Many, many thanks for this exciting news,

Sunny

Offline Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2004, 09:25:16 AM »
Dear Rodger;

You are always so energetic in your responses, but I must take exception to your vehement assertion that my reference to the Grand Duchess Elizabeth's will is nonsense.

The Last Will and Testament of the the Grand Duchess Eliizabeth is in the State Archives of the Russian Federation (RGIA, fond 468, opis' 46, No. 136, 9.1.1)  The will, dated June 4th, 1911, signed by Elizabeth and countersigned by the Emperor states "I request that I be buried in the crypt of the Church of Our Lady's Shrine which I built on my own lands and properties in Bolshaya Ordynka Street, Moscow at the Community of Mercy.  A special place there has already been arranged, and it is known to Father Mitrophan, and the Mother Superior."  Elizabeth went on do describe the details of her eventual entombment in great detail.

Her will ended with a request that wreaths should not be laid on her tomb, nor on er catafalque, nor on her grave, but that the money would be better used if given to the Convent.

Best wishes, and so there.  By the way, I have seen this document with my own eyes.

Nick ;D

PS, there is also an account of this in Zoya Belyakova's article about the Grand Duchess, "All fell in Love With Ella."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Nick_Nicholson »
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elisa_1872

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2004, 04:02:03 PM »
Quote
OH MY GOD!!!

I just read in our newspaper that the REMAINS of GRAND DUCHESS ELISABETH and Sister Warwara arrived in the Russian chapel in Darmstadt on last saturday and were praised in a special service!!!!

They are on their way to Moskow and will stay in every russian orthodox diocese in Germany during the next weeks before they'll arrive.
The russian patriachs of Germany and USA attended the service.

I cannot believe it: It was THIS very saturday when I passed the chapel in Darmstadt coming back from a concert. I saw some russian priests coming out of the chapel, saw the lights inside and heard the singing.
I DID think "Shell I go and look?" but I didn't for I was afraid to disturb the service.
I did not know that I was only 10m away from Ella's remains... :o

Will they remain in Russia now or is it just for some time? And what is the reason for this transfer?
(Sorry - I think it has been posted but i can't find it anymore)


Oh my word.. i am so speechless :o Ella+++ This is too incredible!!! And to think, so close to where the service was held..  Thomas how beautiful you were able to spend time so near HER...+

Offline Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2004, 03:24:31 PM »
Dear all,

It appears that the entire remains of Grand Duchess Elizabeth have not been sent to Moscow.  Judging from the Russian text of the ITAR-TASS link which Bob provided, a relic has been separated from the remains and has been shipped to Russia for good. (note the size of the reliquary--it appears that most of Ella has been left in Jerusalem.)

The relics were venerated at the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow in the presence of the Patriarch, and there is no mention of whether the relics will remain there or be transferred to the Convent of Martha and Mary.


« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 08:06:00 AM by Svetabel »
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2004, 03:56:27 PM »
Royal relics help heal church rift
STEVE GUTTERMAN IN MOSCOW


THE remains of the last tsarina’s sister were returned to Russia yesterday in the latest sign of unity between the dominant Russian Orthodox Church and its foreign branch, which broke away after the Bolshevik Revolution.

The remains of Grand Duchess Elizabeth, who was thrown down a mine shaft by Bolsheviks in 1918 and has been canonised by both the Moscow-based church and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, were brought by plane from Jerusalem.

The remains of Elizabeth, an older sister of Tsar Nicholas II’s wife Alexandra, had been spirited out of Russia via China and later brought to the Mary Magdalene cathedral in Jerusalem, which belongs to the foreign-based church.

The relics - part of Elizabeth’s right hand, according to state-run Rossiya television - were transported in a golden ark that was taken to Moscow’s Christ the Saviour Cathedral, where an opulent ceremony was held. The remains will be in Russia for six months and will travel to churches across the former Soviet Union.

Also returning were the remains of Elizabeth’s helper, a nun named Varvara, who was killed with her.

The temporary return of the remains was being carried out by the Russian Orthodox Church with the support of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. It comes as the two churches take their first steps toward reunification after decades of distrust.

In a message read out at the ceremony at Christ the Saviour, Russian Orthodox patriarch Alexy II said he hoped the return of Elizabeth’s remains would signal "God’s blessing of the process that has started of unification of the Russian Orthodox Church".

The exiled church severed all contact with the Moscow-based church after its leader pledged loyalty to the Communist government in 1927. The Moscow Patriarchate has said that step was taken to save the church from complete ruin under officially atheist Communist rule.

The home church called the transfer of Elizabeth’s remains the "first joint action" of the two churches.

"The rapprochement is visible," Metropolitan Alexander, a Russian Orthodox Church leader, said.

The leader of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia visited the country this spring, and both churches have expressed the desire to end their rift. The Russian Orthodox Church has had a major resurgence since the 1991 Soviet collapse.

Elizabeth, who married an uncle of Nicholas, Grand Duke Sergei, founded a convent in Moscow. She was one of several royal family members thrown alive down a mine shaft in the Ural Mountains in 1918. Their bodies were found later that summer.

Also:
Thousands of Muscovites meet the shrine with the relics of Grand Duchess Elizabeth

25.07.2004, 18.59


MOSCOW, July 25 (Itar-Tass) - Thousands of Muscovites met the shrine with the relics of Grand Duchess Elizabeth, whom the Russian Orthodox Church had canonized as a holy martyr, at the Savior Cathedral on Sunday. The shrine had been delivered from Jerusalem.

Hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, and nuns from the St. Mary Magdalene’s Convent, where the relics had been since 1921, are taking part in the festive service.

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia agreed to deliver the relics to Russia for six months on the occasion of the 95th anniversary of the Cloister of St. Mary and Martha the Grand Duchess opened.

Metropolitan of Krutitsy and Komolna Juvenaly read out a message of Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Alexy II. The Patriarch hopes that the delivery of the relics to Russia was a blessing to the beginning reunification of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Alexy II could not attend the ceremony on health reasons. A source in the Patriarchate told Itar-Tass that he would minister a service near the relics several days from now. The relics will stay in Moscow till August 5. They will be carried from the Savior Cathedral to the St. Daniil Monastery with a stopover at the Cloister of St. Mary and Martha. After that the relics will be carried from one place to another in Russia, CIS member countries and Baltic republics for six months.

ITAR-TASS
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2004, 04:43:33 PM »
I wish I knew. There's supposedly a finger of hers in a Russian church in the US that was involved in the controversial DNA testing the past year or so (which purportedly didn't match Alexandra, etc...). I guess if that IS her finger, they could take part of her to Russia. I think the whole thing is kind of icky. I enjoy visiting shrines as much as the next good Catholic, but even then the less intact remains (ie Anthony of Padua) struck me so. I mean to be parcelled out all over, just seems like a desecration. I prefer to visit the INTACT shrine (like St Bernadette).
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Offline Ilana

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2004, 05:35:07 PM »
Well, I have to say that I did visit the church in Jerusalem and she looked "intact" to me.  There was a clear glass cover over the coffin and she was dressed.  There was simply a matte lace hankerchief over her face and the outlines of her face could be seen.  It was pretty creepy, but I was under the impression that she was all there.  However, she wore large shapeless mitts and booties, so, who knows about fingers.  YUK!
So long and thanks for all the fish

Offline Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2004, 09:19:45 PM »
Actually partition of relics is not a desecration.  It is a standard practice in both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.

The finger GrandduchessElla mentions is generally here in New York at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Sign which is part of ROCOR.  Perhaps the part of the right hand sent from jerusalem is the rest of the hand it comes from?

I find it interesting that the remains of the hand are in Jerusalem.  Perhaps (ugh) when the body was shipped, the hand was damaged or removed, and the relic/finger in question was sent to New York?

I was under the impression that the whole body would be sent.  I am actually a bit relieved that it hasn't been.

Best,

Nick
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