Author Topic: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics  (Read 152274 times)

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Offline Martyn

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2004, 04:49:31 AM »
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The heart-breaking photograph does, I think, show Ella's body intact. The face seems to be covered in dirt. For some reason it reminded me of the Mel Gibson 'Passion of the Christ' where the beautiful is made to appear ugly by the ugliness of cruelty and prejudice, but the truth still shines through.


You may well be right, maybe it is dirt.  Does anyone have any information about the current state of Ella's relics (some of which seem to be in Russia at the moment)?
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Alicky1872

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2004, 05:58:20 PM »
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The heart-breaking photograph does, I think, show Ella's body intact. The face seems to be covered in dirt.


It doesn't look like dirt to me. It looks like it's been burnt. I don't want to be morbid here, but if you look closely, you can sort of see a void where her eye should be. Also, the right side of the face doesn't look 3D if you know what I mean. It looks sunken in, the face looks destroyed.

No one has yet been able to explain why people have written that the body (so this presumably means the face as well) remains intact, when this picture shows something very different. I believe someone mentioned that Ella's sisters may have given that impression to Ernie, so as not to upset him too much--but why would other people (as recent as the 80's when her body was brought to the US) say this?


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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2004, 06:02:24 PM »
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You may well be right, maybe it is dirt.  Does anyone have any information about the current state of Ella's relics (some of which seem to be in Russia at the moment)?


I am becoming so interested in this, since the photo was posted. I don't know much about saints and their relics, so maybe someone could answer my question...is it common practice to cover the saint's face with a cloth, like Ella's is?

Offline Belochka

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #78 on: December 29, 2004, 10:37:57 PM »
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...is it common practice to cover the saint's face with a cloth, like Ella's is?


Elizaveta's face was decomposed and this could explain why she was covered.



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bluetoria

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2004, 06:05:04 AM »
I did look closely at the picture again but I think both eyes are visible. According to the monk Seraphim, who was first to see Ella's body when it was recovered from the mine shaft, her face was perfect except that her nose was broken - and he straightened it. She was also recognized by the people in Apalaivsk. Again, according to a former Russian diplomat (or ambassador, not sure) whose name was, I think, Kudashev (but I may be wrong about that) when her bodies of the Alapaevsk vicitims were brought to Peking he had the duty of identifying them. He wrote that Ella looked no different (despite having been entombed for a long time in Alapaevsk) than it had whenhe last saw her in Moscow several years before. He said she appeared to be sleeping.

Offline Martyn

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2004, 07:07:58 AM »
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I did look closely at the picture again but I think both eyes are visible. According to the monk Seraphim, who was first to see Ella's body when it was recovered from the mine shaft, her face was perfect except that her nose was broken - and he straightened it. She was also recognized by the people in Apalaivsk. Again, according to a former Russian diplomat (or ambassador, not sure) whose name was, I think, Kudashev (but I may be wrong about that) when her bodies of the Alapaevsk vicitims were brought to Peking he had the duty of identifying them. He wrote that Ella looked no different (despite having been entombed for a long time in Alapaevsk) than it had whenhe last saw her in Moscow several years before. He said she appeared to be sleeping.


I think that Kudashev, or whoever it was, may have been guilty of romanticisation in stating that she looked no different from the last time that he saw her in Moscow.  Let's be realistic here.  She had been hit over the head, pushed down a mineshaft and, correct me if I am wrong, the Soviets had then thrown grenades down after their victims.  In addition to this, it was some time before the bodies were recovered, so there must have been some element of decomposition or damage.
I would love to believe that Ella looked merely as though she was sleeping when she was recovered; that her preservation was the result of something miraculous, but the realist in me needs to have the proof that this was so.
The photograph suggests otherwise.....
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Offline RomanovFan

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2004, 12:09:27 AM »
I'm a little confused as to what happened exactly. Were Ella and the others thrown in the mineshaft and died from their wounds or were they kept prisoners in the mineshaft for several hours and shot?
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #82 on: December 31, 2004, 12:42:54 AM »
There've often been conflicting reports as to how and when (in terms of how long) they all died since none of the victims survived to tell. It appears that they were forced to the mineshaft and pushed in. Grenades and other objects may have been tossed in as well. GD Serge M apparently put up a struggle and was shot before he was pushed into the shaft. Causes of death could've been starvation, exposure, blunt force trauma (from the fall) and perhaps shrapnel if grenades were used and gunshot for at least Serge.
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Offline Martyn

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #83 on: December 31, 2004, 06:48:32 AM »
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There've often been conflicting reports as to how and when (in terms of how long) they all died since none of the victims survived to tell. It appears that they were forced to the mineshaft and pushed in. Grenades and other objects may have been tossed in as well. GD Serge M apparently put up a struggle and was shot before he was pushed into the shaft. Causes of death could've been starvation, exposure, blunt force trauma (from the fall) and perhaps shrapnel if grenades were used and gunshot for at least Serge.


That's the general view of what happened.  It's quite barbaric really.  It would have bee more humane to shoot them; plus where was the real need to kill Varvara?
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bluetoria

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #84 on: December 31, 2004, 07:57:24 AM »
Come to that, there was no need to kill Ella either. I still believe that despite everything her body did remain intact. The cloth on the face may justbe a mark of respect or to protect it from light etc. There are many similar instances of perfect preservations of bodies i.e. Bernadette of Lourdes in Nevers. I also cannot think why anyone eho had actually SEEN her body (i.e. Seraphim and Kudashev - or whatever his name was!) would need to make up such a story when her sanctity would have beenrecognized whether or not her body was intact.  

Offline Martyn

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #85 on: December 31, 2004, 09:29:40 AM »
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Come to that, there was no need to kill Ella either. I still believe that despite everything her body did remain intact. The cloth on the face may justbe a mark of respect or to protect it from light etc. There are many similar instances of perfect preservations of bodies i.e. Bernadette of Lourdes in Nevers. I also cannot think why anyone eho had actually SEEN her body (i.e. Seraphim and Kudashev - or whatever his name was!) would need to make up such a story when her sanctity would have beenrecognized whether or not her body was intact.  


Well the aim seemed to be to eliminate the Romanovs, in whatever shape or form.  The soviets in Ekaterinburg had not hesitated to kill the entire IF and their retainers.  I suppose that I have answered my own question; after all, many who were attached to or associated with the Romanovs were ultimately punished; Mlle Schneider, Countess Hendrikova, Misha's secretary Brian Johnson - all paid the price for their association with IF.  Why should they treat Varvara any differently?
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Offline Dennis

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2004, 11:49:11 AM »
It seems to me that many of these faithful retainers were killed because they could have been witnesses against the murderers if circumstances changed and the murderers had been brought to trial by a new government.
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #87 on: December 31, 2004, 01:50:40 PM »
They wouldn't have been witnesses if they hadn't been taken at all. It seems to me that they were deemed guilty by association.
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2004, 01:53:41 PM »
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Come to that, there was no need to kill Ella either. I still believe that despite everything her body did remain intact. The cloth on the face may justbe a mark of respect or to protect it from light etc. There are many similar instances of perfect preservations of bodies i.e. Bernadette of Lourdes in Nevers. I also cannot think why anyone eho had actually SEEN her body (i.e. Seraphim and Kudashev - or whatever his name was!) would need to make up such a story when her sanctity would have beenrecognized whether or not her body was intact.  


Could it just been a matter of what's deem incorrupt? St Bernadette non-violently whereas Ella suffered a very violent death out in the open, exposed to the elements. Maybe her body was considered incorrupt by Seraphim, et al because, while it suffered the understandable damage due to a fall, etc...it remained remarkably unaffected by the cold, water, etc...? A saint's body isn't expected to bear NO wounds just not suffer the expected decomposition post-mortem. Just a thought.
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Offline Martyn

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2004, 02:38:04 PM »
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Could it just been a matter of what's deem incorrupt? St Bernadette non-violently whereas Ella suffered a very violent death out in the open, exposed to the elements. Maybe her body was considered incorrupt by Seraphim, et al because, while it suffered the understandable damage due to a fall, etc...it remained remarkably unaffected by the cold, water, etc...? A saint's body isn't expected to bear NO wounds just not suffer the expected decomposition post-mortem. Just a thought.

That's an interesting thought...may I ask, if it isn't too impertinent GDElla, whether you believe that is the case?  That her body was preserved from those effects by some miracle?
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV