Author Topic: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics  (Read 152442 times)

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2004, 10:26:06 PM »
The history of collecting relics of saints can be rather "6 Feet Under"  funny. Many years ago, I was in a seminary in Wash.D.C. and we always had Eastern as well as Western prelates staying for one reason or another. Often on there way to Rome. Well, Thay also often traveled with saint's relics for various reasons.  They were put on display in our chapel for a special veneration, and sometimes were placed in newly built basillica. One time, the Cardinal of LA was staying, I forget the reason, but he had the head of St. Vibiana in a smart Louis Vuitton type carrying case. which was put out for veneration. I was curious about what they did when the rest of the body was displayed. Very casually informed that they had a wax head for that ! Not much has shocked me since the moring I went into chapel & good ol' St. Vibiana was staring at me in the sacristy, dis-embodied.
I imagine it is the same with other body parts, they just make a wax replacement, depending on how much was left of the original.
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Robert
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2004, 10:57:10 PM »
Quote
Actually partition of relics is not a desecration.  It is a standard practice in both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.

The finger GrandduchessElla mentions is generally here in New York at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Sign which is part of ROCOR.  Perhaps the part of the right hand sent from jerusalem is the rest of the hand it comes from?

I find it interesting that the remains of the hand are in Jerusalem.  Perhaps (ugh) when the body was shipped, the hand was damaged or removed, and the relic/finger in question was sent to New York?

I was under the impression that the whole body would be sent.  I am actually a bit relieved that it hasn't been.

Best,

Nick


I agree, it's not _technically_ a desecration, just that it seems it after all she suffered and has rested in peace for so long.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Offline Annie

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2004, 08:25:01 AM »
Quote

I agree, it's not _technically_ a desecration, just that it seems it after all she suffered and has rested in peace for so long.


True :'(

Offline Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2004, 01:55:26 PM »
Miguel,

The wish of Elizaveta Feodorovna to be entombed in the Church of Mary Magdalene predates her final wish to be buried at the Sisterhood of Martha and Mary in Moscow.  Her will is clear on what her final wish was.

As for the church in Jerusalem, I do not believe that the ownership has ever satisfactorily cleared up between the chuirches and that they are in a grudging "share" situation of which this "visit" of EF to Russia is a by-product.

For those who are interested in the History of the church there is a wonderful new book which was the Winner of the Frank S. and Elizabeth D. Brewer Prize of the American Society of Church History, called "Russian Orthodoxy on the Eve of Revolution" by Vera Shevzov, Assistant Professor in the Department of Religion and Biblical Literature, Smith College.  It is available from Oxford University Press: Price: £30.00 (Hardback)
ISBN 0-19-515465-7.

Best,

Nick
Nick Nicholson
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2004, 03:02:39 PM »
Just as a side--with all the controversy about how DNA from the finger in NY didn't match Alexandra's etc....is there any chance that the finger could actually be Varvar's if both had hands cut? Just a thought...
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Offline Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2004, 02:11:27 PM »
Dear Miguel,

Forgive me, I did not mean to intimate that the building of the church of Mary Magdalene itself is being "shared" by the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR.  I have attended ROCOR my whole life, and am well aware of that.  

What I meant was that the two churches have brought the relics to Russia together in an act of reconciliation.   Several months ago, Bishops from both churches met here in New York, and this visit of veneration was part of the discussions.  

I believe there is certainly a rapprochement between the churches, and that they will continue moving slowly forward towards reconciliation.

The biggest problem the churches seem to face are issues of finances and real estate--theological differences are growing more minimal as time goes by, it seems.

Best,

Nick
Nick Nicholson
New York City

Offline gem_10

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2004, 04:12:46 AM »
Oh how I envy all of you! I wish I could also see Ella. By the way, could you please tell me how to post pictures? Thanks.

Sunny

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2004, 06:37:13 AM »
I was not aware that the situation involving St. Mary Magdalene had been resolved. Nick, many thanks for the new book info. Elisa, what a lovely idea.....Forum Admin ?  :)

Sunny

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2004, 01:36:23 AM »
Latest from ITAR-TASS:
Relics of Duchess Yelizaveta worshipped in Russia region
16.08.2004, 11.26

KHABAROVSK, August 16 (Itar-Tass) -- Khabarovsk is Russia’s eighth city where believers have a possibility to bow to relics of Grand Duchess Yelizaveta and nun Varvara.

The relics were brought to the city from Vladivostok in a train church on Sunday.

A spokesman at Khabarovsk’s eparchy told Itar-Tass that the relics would stay in the city for two days.

Thousands of people have come to the Assumption Cathedral to see the relics that the whole Christian Orthodox World worships.

Bishop Mark of Khabarovsk and the Amur region, who read a special service, said the coming of the relics was a “uniting action”. He stressed that it began from eastern regions of Russia.

The reliquary was taken to a hospital where the construction of a church in memory of Great Martyr Yelizaveta is being finished and a parish has been opened.

A cross will be consecrated there before it will crown the church.

Church services for cure of ill people will be held in several hospitals, including in the home church of Saint Ioann of Kronshtadt at a children’s hospital.

The holy procession with the relics of Duchess Yelizaveta and nun Varvara began from Moscow’s Saint Daniel Monastery on August 5 with the blessing from Patriarch Alexy II, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, and Metropolitan Laurus, first hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad.

The relics have been taken by plane to six cities of the Russian Far East.

The relics will be returned to Moscow by train church by the day of New Russian Martyrs in February 2005.

They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Offline ChristineM

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2004, 03:55:28 PM »
I have rediscovered a pamphlet from the Church of St Mary Magdelene in Jerusalem which I received in the late 1990s.   The following information may be of some interest -

'The Church of St Mary Magdalene is situated on the slope of the Mount of Olives in the Garden of Gethsemane and is one of the most recogniseable landmarks of Jerusalem.   This striking example of Russian architecture was built in the Muscovite style with golden onion domes or cupolas.   It was built as a memorial to Empress Maria Alexandrovna by her son the Russian Tsar Alexander III and his brothers.

Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovich, brother of Alexander III, and his wife Grand Duchess Elizabeth (formerly Princess Elizabeth of Hesse-Darmstadt), granddaughter of Queen Victoria and sister of the last Empress of Russia, presided at the consecration of the church of St Mary Magdalene in 1888 as representatives of the Emperor.   The Grand Duchess took a deep personal interest in the church and commissioned the well-known Russian artist Sergei Ivanov (1864-1910) to paint the large imposing murals depicting the life of Saint Mary Magdalene which were brought to Jerusalem for the consecration and hang in the church today.   The large canvas above the iconstasis shows Mary Magdalene before the Roman Emperor Tiberius.  In her hand she holds a red egg which she presents to the Emperor, symbolizing the resurrection and eternal life.   She tells Tiberius about the unjust judgement and death of the cross of Jesus Christ.   It is known that after re-examining this unlawful trial Pilate, at that time governor of Jerusalem, was deposed and sent into exile.   The elegant white marble and bronze iconostasis holds icons by the distinguished Russian artist, Veresshchaguin......................

'Grand Duchess Elizabeth, widowed by an assassin's bomb in 1905, became a nun and founded a convent devoted to nursing and charitable work in Moscow.   After the revolution, in 1918 the Grand Duchess together with her companion Sister Barbara and several members of the Russian Imperial Family were thrown into a mine shaft by the bolsheviks and left to die.   Her remains and those of Sister Barbara eventually were brought to Jerusalem.   In 1920, they were laid to rest, as the Grand Duchess wished, in a crypt below the Saint Mary Magdalene Church.  They were canonized as Martyr Saints in 1981 and at this time their relics were moved into the main section of the church where they rest today in marble sarcophagi.

'Princess Andrew of Greece (born Princess Alice of Batterberg) mother of the Duke of Edinburgh visited the church and stayed in the monastery in the 1930s.   Her wish was to be buried near her 'Aunt Ella', the Grand Duchess Elizabeth whose devotion to the church and to nursing and charitable service she strove to emulate.   Princess Andrew died at Buckingham Palace in 1969.   Her wish to be buried at the Convent of Saint Mary Magdalene in Gethsemane was finally realised in 1988 when her remains were transferred to her final resting place in a crypt below the church.........'

This Church was held very dear not just to the sons of Alexander II - who felt their mother had been seriously neglected by their father - but also by the four daughters of the Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse Darmstadt - Victoria, Elizabeth, Irene and Alix.   The late Empress, Marie Alexandrovna, had been a Hessian princess like themselves.    The Grand Duchess Elizabeth along with her sisters worked a carpet which lay in front of the iconostasis.

There are further details in the pamphlet concerning the Church and its work today should anyone be interested.

I am sure much of this material is known to many on the Forum.   I hope the above includes some fresh information.  

I feel the Grand Duchess', later, preference would to be laid to rest in Moscow within the precincts of the Convent she founded.

Offline Teddy

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2004, 09:27:20 AM »
I heard of photo's of the body's! Were can I find them. It must be spooky but at the same time interesting.

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2004, 12:57:15 PM »
The autopsy of the body by Sergeyev (from Sokolov pg 296):
On the head, under the skin, were discovered several areas of bleeding caused by contusions: on the front one about the size of a baby's hand, on the left top of the head was another the size of a man's hand.  The bone of the skull was intact."

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2004, 01:11:25 PM »
Quote
The autopsy of the body by Sergeyev (from Sokolov pg 296):
On the head, under the skin, were discovered several areas of bleeding caused by contusions: on the front one about the size of a baby's hand, on the left top of the head was another the size of a man's hand.  The bone of the skull was intact."


Nothing about the face? Does that mean we can assume that it was intact or was it just omitted?

Offline Dennis

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2004, 01:16:00 PM »

In memory of Grand Duchess Elizabeth:


"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."
      - Revelation 2:2



Dennis

Offline Teddy

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2004, 05:46:09 PM »
It's make me very sad to look at this picture of the body of Ella.

For what I see: is that her body was not intact at all. If it was intact, than you can see at her face how much pain she must had in that mine shaft. It look horrible.

I can't regonize her at all! She was a beauthiful lady but if someone tells me its body of someone who had died hundreds of years ago, I would believe it.