Author Topic: Russian Empire legal successor  (Read 16415 times)

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Offline richard_1990

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Russian Empire legal successor
« on: January 20, 2010, 07:57:25 AM »
Russia is officially the legal successor of the Soviet Union. But is it also considered the legal successor of the Russian Empire? I didn't think it was, nor had I seen anything that would suggest otherwise until today:

Quote
The Nice Superior Court in France has declared Russia to be the rightful owner of St. Nicholas Orthodox Cathedral.

"Russia is the rightful owner of the territory, the cathedral, as well as all its properties," the chair of the Nice Municipal High Court said.

The Patriarchate of Moscow claimed the cathedral should be returned to the Russian state, the successor to the tsarist regime.

However, the Russian Orthodox Association of Nice (ACOR) opposed the claim, arguing the cathedral belongs to the Orthodox Church of Constantinople.

The ACOR said it will make an appeal to a court in the French city of Aix-en-Provence.

The church was originally the property of Tsar Nicholas II, however, it was given to the archbishop of St. Petersburg with a 99-year lease, which expired on December 31, 2007.

In 2007, the Cote d'Azur region, which includes Nice at its center, declared the contents of the church part of the national patrimony which meant no part of it could be removed from France without the permission of the Ministry of Culture.

St. Nicholas Cathedral, the largest Russian Orthodox Cathedral outside Russia, was built in 1912 in Nice and opened by Tsar Nicolas II, who also funded the construction, in the same place where his uncle Prince Nicolai Alexandrovich died in 1865. The cathedral is rich with icons, woodwork, and frescos.

It was established for the large Russian community that lived in the French Riviera and in Nice at the beginning of the 20th century.

The cathedral is a popular tourist attraction with up to 200,000 people visiting it annually.

Last year, a Russian Orthodox Church dedicated to St. Nicholas in the Italian city of Bari was returned to Russian ownership. The church was built in the beginning of the 20th century to welcome Russians coming to the city to visit the 11th-century Basilica of St. Nicholas, where the saint's relics lie.

St. Nicholas, a fourth-century bishop, was famous for his generosity. He later developed into the figure of Santa Claus in some countries. In 1087, his remains were stolen from the ancient Turkish city of Myra by sailors from Bari.

http://en.rian.ru/Religion/20100120/157625180.html

Offline Nicolay

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 07:08:01 PM »
Now it's Russia's turn to return some things to their rightful owners!
;)

Offline Nicolay

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 02:16:27 AM »
Forgot,
there is a nice picture of it in last Thursday's LA Times!
January 21
Page A20
But little mentioning!
To bad ..family documents were handed over/confiscated to Russia a long time ago!

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2010, 04:37:16 AM »
Now it's Russia's turn to return some things to their rightful owners!
;)

Ah yes, but who are the :rightful owners?"

 :-X ;) :-X ;)
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline Nicolay

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2010, 05:05:50 AM »
Now it's Russia's turn to return some things to their rightful owners!
;)

Ah yes, but who are the :rightful owners?"

 :-X ;) :-X ;)

You know my opinion !!!!!!!!,
it went into the wrong hands...just like the family documents!
The church will have no part of it, Orthodox here or there...it will be in Government hands!

;)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 05:17:49 AM by Nicolay »

Offline Nicolay

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2010, 05:18:52 AM »
Or am I missing information?

Offline richard_1990

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2010, 09:55:43 AM »
What are you talking about? Family documents?

Offline Nicolay

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2010, 04:04:05 PM »
We were down there "twice",
and were told that the family documents from the entire Russian community in Nice
were sequestered by the Soviet Union ....handed over, packed up and sent to Moscow !

Don't remember the date, somewhere between 1950-1970???!
:(
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 04:05:43 PM by Nicolay »

Offline Vladimir_V.

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 02:17:53 AM »
I think it is logical. Russia is the legal successor of the Tsar`s Russia, the same as France is the legal successor  of the King`s France.

Previous step:
Russia and France settled the problem of so-called "king's debts" in June 1997. Agreement on the settlement of mutual financial claims, provides that the Government of the Republic will not support the financial requirements for all loans and bonds issued or guaranteed until November 7, 1917 the Government of Russia, as well as the requirement to return the property of French individuals and entities.

In turn, Russia party has made a commitment not to support associated with the intervention of the years 1918-1922, the requirements for all assets in France, including the portion of gold, which was transferred to the Government of the RSFSR in Germany at the conclusion of the Brest-Litovsk peace treaty, and gold transferred to the French Admiral Kolchak.

The agreement stipulated that as a full and final settlement of all mutual financial claims arising prior to May 9, 1945, Russia paid France $ 400 million over 4 years.

Offline Student of History

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2010, 11:34:38 PM »
richard_1990 - I am intrigued by your use of the term legal successor.
My understanding is that the country known as Russia today is Putin's Russia, in an entirely dissimiliar way to Obama's USA.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Soviet Union become the C.I.S one of which was an entity which included a redrawn Russia which held little likeness to the former expanded territories of the Russian Empire. Or does this question beg the question : what is the role of the Patriach in modern-day Russia and how, if at all has it changed from C19th, C20th and C21st century?


Offline richard_1990

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 02:26:49 AM »
I don't understand your question entirely. Russia became the USSRs legal successor, the entire world recognizes this. It inherited the debt of the USSR as well as it's standing in international organizations - such as the United Nations Security Council. There's no such thing as "Putin's Russia" anymore so than there is an "Obama's United States" - there's simply the Russian Federaiton and the United States.

Like I expressed in the original post, this is the first time I've seen legal continuity between the Russian Empire and the Russian Federation ( I wasn't aware of what Vladimir_V mentioned until today).

So legally it goes: Russian Empire > Soviet Union > Russian Federation

Offline Student of History

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2010, 02:38:58 AM »
Richard_1990,
That may be the political viewpoint of the international community for the purposes of diplomacy, however, your post refers to the ownership of property reportedly built by TNII outside of Russia.  Therefore the first thing that needs to be established would be: Did TNII build the church with his personal funds or with state funds?
SOH

Offline richard_1990

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2010, 03:00:17 AM »
Nicholas II was the state. I don't believe he had private property or funds - it was all the states. I believe this was the argument the Russian Government is using.

Offline Student of History

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2010, 03:25:09 AM »
Ah... the tug-o-war over $$$, how very original :)
TNII administered both his personal funds and state funds.  Just like his brothers and sisters, his children had their own private funds.  It's a bit like saying QEII or Prince Charles don't have any personal wealth of their own...Establish the source of the funds used for the construction of the church in Nice and from there the question of legal continuty will become apparent.
Kind Regards,
SOH

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Russian Empire legal successor
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 03:34:22 AM »
Establish the source of the funds used for the construction of the church in Nice and from there the question of legal continuty will become apparent.

Time Magazine writes:
"But the court upheld the Russian government's position that since the czarists had bought the land and built the church using state money [my emphasis], the cathedral remains the property of the Russian government, meaning that Moscow could legally reclaim it now that ACOR's lease has expired."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1956045,00.html#ixzz0eMpmFbOt