Empress Maria Alexandrovna,wife of Alexander II - discussion and pictures

Certainly they both deserve sympathy.  And you did raise an interesting point, that MA could very well have been divorced by her husband but he did not.  But certainly you didn't take into account that this act on AII part may have been for more than just respect for his wife.  (i.e. political, image, his children). He was already open to much criticism and assassination.

And as far as AII being virile and not waiting for his wife to die makes him sound awfully callous toward a woman who stood loyally behind her husband and at one time shared a deep love with him.  And IMO, AII was not a callous man.

I chose to view this from what I think MA's perspective essentially may have been, being a woman myself, and as to how she might have felt during this time as Empress.  Certainly had it been the other way around, MA would have been expected to be celibate.

Then we have a difference of opinion. I think the fact that he didn't put her aside or force himself on her shows he was anything but callous. He had enough respect for her to find his physical needs elsewhere while at the same time maintain his friendship and respect for her. And do we really have enough information to know what Marie was feeling. Maybe it did hurt her, or maybe she accomodated herself to the situtation. In any case both chose to go on with their lives without the rancor, hatred, namecalling, and scene making that recent royals have demonstrated in similair circumstances. I give them both great credit.
People do fall out of love. Today they divorce. Alexander chose not to take that course. Does this mean he was a bad man because he found love with another woman?
And while Marie might have been expected to remain celibate if it had been Alexander who was ill most of the time and unable to fulfill his duties as a husband, it doesn't mean she would have. In her case I suspect she would have, but there were plenty of other royal women who found "love" in other places than their husband's arms.

Well, I have already conceded to your point that AII was NOT a bad man.  IMO by any stretch of the imagination.  And you do make a good point that they went about their business with dignity without the hatred normal couples breaking up would have.

You are right that certainly many women found love in other places if their husbands weren't interested (or even if they were! )
It's just my opintion that it must have been very difficult for MA and she may not have taken it as well as everybody was led to believe.  It certainly didn't help her health. 

And while we agree to disagree, i find your thoughts in the last post very thought provoking.

What we're talking here is biology, sexual politics, and the simple fact that mating for life is not always going to work.

To begin with, if a couple--married or otherwise--that has been previously sexually compatible, or at least sexually active, at some point becomes sexually inactive when one of the partners is no longer sexually active, why should the other partner be expected to become celibate as well?

Second, it is a sad fact that women from that period often became worn out from frequent childbearing and were no longer sexually attractive to their husbands. Fortunately--in my opinion--divorce has become much less stigmatized and today's laws are far more geared toward dealing with such situations so that each party, quite literally, has their "day in court."

Finally, the concept of successfully mating for life is in all too many situations a romanticized myth. While many people do take their marriage vows seriously and are in it "for the long haul," a great many more simply don't have what it takes in terms of psychological and/or spiritual foundation to remain happily committed--and faithful--to one person for the rest of their lives.

I wouldn't be too harsh on Alexander II. He was behaving within the standard that was typical of that time for all men, be they tsars or private citizens. In addition, our information about his first marriage is limited; who can say with complete certainty what goes on within a relationship and when and why the erosion begins?

That being said, I want to also express empathy for Maria Alexandrovna. To be rejected at any level is heartbreaking; to be rejected publicly, for all the world to gossip about, is a humiliation beyond description.

And lor_c, if I didn't find your posts interesting and thought provoking I wouldn't bother to try and debate with you. It is fun, isn't it. Thanks for making it interesting.

And for Janet_W: Yes, it is sad. It is too bad she was trapped in her situtation by custom  and was unable to make a life for herself on her own terms. She had to keep up the facade, but I admire her for her good sense and dignity of character.

Some bits about MA from Romanov Autumn:

"'His son [AII], despite only spending one day at Darmstadt, found his attention drawn to the Princess because she was not very well treated, and the Emperor [NI] quite understands how this would heighten the interest his son already felt for her..." (this from the Austrian Ambassador to St Petersburg)

'The first months were an ordeal. Marie was homesick and bewildered and in later years she told one of her ladies-in-waiting that she had often been forced to hide her tears, opening ventilation slats in the window so that the cold air...would take the redness from her eyes. As shy as her father, she was too withdrawn to make a good impression at a Court where social skills were all-important....The Tsarevich was everything she could have wanted in a husband, and after the wedding she and Alexander were partners as well as lovers...she shared her husband's dream of enacting real reform...Alexander trusted her judgement. They build up their own circle of friends, and as Alexander relied on Marie...to support him in his work, so she reliedon him to guide her into society, and give her confidence. The Russian historian Tatichev described these as 'years of untroubled family happiness..' "

"As the 1850s drew to an end, Maria's health began to deteriorate. Like her mother, she suffered from tuberculosis; when she was twelve the disease had almost killed her, and the combined effects of the damp and cold climate...and her rapid succession of pregnancies were more than her body could bear...Alexander worried and consulted various doctors; nine months after the coronation, in May 1857, Maria gave birth to her seventh child, Sergei."

[starts]

Well, I think the facts speak for themselves. Many tsars had mistresses, and certainly she would have been naive not to expect that. But, it is clear that the devotion of Alexander II to his mistress extended beyond the norm, and that he really ignored her at the end of her life, when she was moreover, not well. I didn't say she was so much a victim of the Romanovs, or even of her husband ( in later years to be sure, the early years of their marriage were very happy), but of dynastic marriage. Of course, her marriage started out as a love match, but it became dynastic, especially towards the end. That's an interesting contrast with the facts of dynastic marriages ( that started out dynastically) that ended up personally happy, such as Alexander III and MF and George V and Queen Mary.

i don't think there is such thing as a marriage that starts as a lovematch and ends up dynastic.

alexander 2nd stayed with his wife at the end because in those times divorce was unheard of. and because he wasn't really a monster and could see how much harm that would do to her, who was already ill.

in short he didn't stay with her because of the dynastic factor rather the marriage factor.

[seems]

Understandably anybody would have craved more than just companionship at that point.  Especially AII.  It just seems on the surface that he threw her away for someone else when she wasn't useful to him in bed anymore.  But it was oh so much more than that between them.  Certainly until she died, they loved one another but he wasn't in love anymore.

But it really couldn't have been any sort of picnic for MA.  As  pointed out by Janet W.  public humiliation really is the worst. However, MA always handled herself with dignity and grace, imo and I so admire her for this. 

Hello Everyone,

I would like to ask the questions:

"Do you think it's possible that Alexander and Maria came to a mutual concensis that they would continue a non-sexual marriage since Maria was ill and probably 'worn-out' physically?"........

She had tuberculosis, a dibilitating disease, and lived mostly away from St. Petersburg, so I've heard.  She was often in the Crimea and the French and Italian Rivieras for her health.
She had provided the dynasty with more than enough heirs and now she just wanted to relax.

Did she involve herself in Empress activities (balls & banquets & chartiable events) or just retire from public life altogether?

Another thought occurs:  All her pictures and paintings show her unsmiling an depressed looking.  Was she ill at the time of these pictures?
Also:  How did she get along with Maria Feodorovna, Maria Pavlovna and Alexandra Iosefovna??

Just some thoughts that occurred to me while reading all your interesting and informative posts.....

Larry

They might have had a tacit arrangement to end the physical side of the marriage. The problem was, Alexander fell deeply in love with 'Katia' and this was the source of the heartbreak.

She seems to have pretty much removed herself from public life--it was never something she enjoyed being temperamentally ill-suited to it and in ill health much of her life.

She always had an air of fragility about her and since her ill-health seems to have dogged her from childhood, it wouldn't be surprising if at the actual times of the photos and portraits she was ill at those particular periods. She was never a robust person at any time.

Apparently she wasn't too keen on MP--that's the impression given--and didn't think the marriage between her and Vladimir would come off due to Marie's refusal to convert. Alexander seems to have been the one who encouraged his son in that matter.

I would think that her relationship with MF was a good one. Her firstborn, 'Nixa', was very much in love with her and enthused over his fiancee to his mother. That had to warm the heart of any devoted parent. Dagmar also rushed to his side when she was ill and remained devotedly by his side. In addition, MA wanted the engagement between Dagmar and Alexander, encouraged it, in fact,  so she wouldn't have held the switching of fiancees against her. MF brought lightness and joy into the house--as well as grandchildren--and was one of those angriest over AII's flaunting of his mistress and 2nd family-as well as his haste in remarrying after MA died.

Hello Larry and welcome!

Her pictures do show a woman who was very ill and "worn out".  Both from having so many children and also from the TB.

I believe, though I am not positive she carried out her duties as Empress in the beginning (balls, charities, etc.) but by the time of the birth of GD Sergei, I think she was very ill and had basically retired from public life in that capacity.

Hello Ella and Lori,

Thank you for your very quick and informative replies.

I, too, have always admired Maria Alexandrovna.  And, Maria Feodorovna is my favourite royal in history.

Also, I have thrilled to the stories of Alexandra Iosifovna and Maria Pavlovna, both of whom have been discribed in various books I read as - "The Grandest of the Grand Duchesses".  Ya gotta love their style!!

Larry

She seems to have pretty much removed herself from public life--it was never something she enjoyed being temperamentally ill-suited to it and in ill health much of her life.

MA reminds me very much of Alix in this point. I wonder if it was a Hessian thing?

As far as her health, didn't her own mother contract TB as well? 

Certainly, it is easy to judge Alexander II, without considering his side of the story. I think the way he acted with Katia did, even at the time not look like just another ruler who had a mistress ( which made it worse). If he had gone out and had mistresses, after his wife was ill, and their marriage was no longer the love match it had once been, that would not have been surprising. Most rulers did, and MA would no doubt have just accepted it ( although she  accepted it anyway), although it might have hurt her more than some wives, who didn't have that love at first. Surely it was easier for royal wives to be bothered about infidelity when the marriage had started out a love match, then it was if both of them were indifferent and just knew the marriage was dynastic.

Alexander II, though was clearly more committed to Katia than most rulers would have been a mistress, in fact he even married her not so long after his wife's death, which created some scandal. He found the love of his life with her, so that makes his actions toward MA more understandable, because of the love he found, but also perhaps more hurtful, because he very much loved Katia  and it wasn't a casual thing. MA did the best she could. I think he stuck with her because divorce was such a disgrace, and it would have made his actions look worse, because divorce wasn't the norm, while infidelity was. A divorce would have hurt both of them, although the situation otherwise did as well. In the end, there are never easy answers to this sort of thing, and I am sure that both MA and Alexander II would have thought that. They found the answer that best suited their day and age, and their status. I would think though, that MA was more the victim of it than her husband. But, I think she would never have thought of herself that way. I

t reminds me of ( if anyone is familiar with Emily Dickinson), of Austin Dickinson, her brother and his mistress Mabel Loomis Todd, who he also found later in life, and she was younger. Their affair caused great hurt to Susan Dickinson his wife, but she was older and made herself an unattractive wife in some ways. She was bitter, though whereas MA was not. At any rate, it also caused great scandal and left lots of hard questions, which reminds me of this. In their case as well, divorce was not really an option, although no remarriage happened in that case, because his wife outlived him. Sorry, if that is way off topic, but I think in that era, before divorce was socially acceptable for the most part, these kinds of circumstances arose frequently, and raised hard to answer questions.

Hello Everyone,

I would like to ask the questions:

"Do you think it's possible that Alexander and Maria came to a mutual concensis that they would continue a non-sexual marriage since Maria was ill and probably 'worn-out' physically?"........

She had tuberculosis, a dibilitating disease, and lived mostly away from St. Petersburg, so I've heard.  She was often in the Crimea and the French and Italian Rivieras for her health.
She had provided the dynasty with more than enough heirs and now she just wanted to relax.

Did she involve herself in Empress activities (balls & banquets & chartiable events) or just retire from public life altogether?

Another thought occurs:  All her pictures and paintings show her unsmiling an depressed looking.  Was she ill at the time of these pictures?
Also:  How did she get along with Maria Feodorovna, Maria Pavlovna and Alexandra Iosefovna??

Just some thoughts that occurred to me while reading all your interesting and informative posts.....

Larry

i believe the doctors pretty much told maria alexandrovna to withdraw from dynastic duties so yes it was a medical thing.

maybe she agreed with the opinion that seems to be common even today among older people. my grandmother still bugs me today with a convinced voice that if 'my boyfriend won't get his needs fulfilled with me he will find somewhere else to do so'. that general opinion that a man is a man and he has to have sex, as a biological need and that that excuses any infidelity.

maybe maria agreed with this and maybe she didn't mind having him sleep around since even today there are women who excuse this kind of behaviour with the common 'he's a man, after all and it's just sex' argument.

however, alexander did more than just have sex, imo. and even a tolerant wife would have been hurt and humiliated.