Author Topic: Why doesn't communism work?  (Read 127868 times)

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Constantinople

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2010, 05:42:33 PM »
Well not really because  while Switzerland fits those parameters, it isnt very socialist.  You need to have a high level of taxation to creat a redistribution of income as well.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2010, 08:51:37 PM »
 Switzerland  does not fit into  the parameters I defined. It is not a  socialist republic.  It  is a country of fiercely independent cantons.
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Constantinople

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2010, 11:45:18 PM »
Well considering the parameters you chose were: health, education, housing & jobs. Switzerland provides all of these, not in a monopolistic fashion but in the same way that the Scandinavian countries do or maybe I missed something.  Which Western European socialist republics were you referring to?

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2010, 03:16:01 AM »
 I stand corrected, Const.  By my own definition, Switzerland does, in some ways,  fit into the  definition. But not quite on the  scale of the  other socialist nations of Western Europe. [Alreaady mentioned]
 Obviously,  a socialist economy is not flawless nor cheap.  Some work, some do not, usually due to corruption and greed. [Greece!]  Switzerland, as I see it, is more of a weak federal republic,  somewhat like the USA,  in which the  individual states have more power in their own affairs. Not always to better effect. Of course, th\ose faults are not  endemic to any particular system. they are universal.
 It is interesting,  Const.  that when in  Amsterdam   last spring, I met a  whole gaggle of Canadians. They did not   actually know each other, but all were on their way back to Canada, after  some time living and working  in various  countries of Europe. The continent had just become too expensive  for them. In talking with them, they did  not seem to really know  what to ecpect in returning to their home country.  Especially in benefits. I have wondered what happened to Canada, on it's way to a socialist economy.
  I guess they are  finding out, as I write this.
 
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Constantinople

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2010, 03:50:53 AM »
Canada was never really socialist.  To understand what those Canadians are tallking about you have to understand the mentality of the government.  Canadian governments have rarely felt responsible to their polity.  They act like a colonial administration in that they are resposnible for but not to the Canadian people.  Canadians have less rights than Americans but probably more than Brits.  Only recently has a Canadian constitution been written and approved.  The last decent Prime Minister we had was Lester Pearson who governed around 1965. Pearson gave Canada its new flag, its pension plan, its medicare program and gave the world the UN peacekeepers.  Pearson's time was the last time there was really full employment.  Since that time, successive governments have built up debt, sold off crown corporations, allowed foreign multinationals to buy up Canadian companies, even in strategic industries and produced a wasteland for jobs.  There are a dearth of decent jobs for educated people now and the government has consistently changed things like unemployment insurance making it more and more difficult to qualify.  Added to this is the increased cost of education and the debt loads that Canadians bring into the world upon their graduation.  Then there are all the little tricks that Canadian governments play on their people like charging tax when it wasnt due and making the recipient of this little trick have to challenge revenue Canada in a tax court.  In one case, they charged one Canadian !,000,000 dollars that he didnt owe and during the audit seized all of the papers he had to support his case (they told him they were going to take them copy and return them, they took them and shredded them).  Then there are all the recent immigrants from places like Hong Kong who have pushed up the prices of real estate in Vancouver, which was another policy of the Canadian government.  Canada seems like a good place to be but for the average Canadian it is anything but a socialist paradise.  It is a place that is getting harder and harder to survive in.

Alixz

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2010, 08:44:50 AM »
It is a place that is getting harder and harder to survive in.

Sounds pretty much like the rest of the world.

Offline PAVLOV

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2010, 11:06:27 AM »
I have a Jewish friend who gave up on the rat race in the 80's, emigrated to Israel, and has since lived on a Kibbutz. He has a stress free life and lives in a community where people support each other in all ways and where the important things in life come first. Greed, avarice, corruption and all the other things that have turned the American dream ( and therefore the world) into the economic disaster we have to live with at the moment, are unknown.
 It is not the sort of life everyone will survive in. However I think that it does work in small communities. The Israelis have made a success of it since the Kibbutzes were established in the 40's.

Communist Russia was a sick joke, and so is North Korea. I actually find it quite frightening that the world still puts up with dictators, like the lunatic in N.K. Eventually he and his family are going to end up like the Ceascescu's, the universe has a way of sorting people like him out in its own time.       

Constantinople

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2010, 11:35:43 AM »
Having a stress free life in Israel is a matter of which ethnic group or religion you belong to.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2010, 12:11:30 PM »
Interesting, Pavlov.  Purely by coincidence,  2 of the Canadians I met were leaving a kibbutzim.  I do not think  one must be Jewish to be in one, as they were  started as social experiments by people from all over the world, of varying beliefs. I did not ask, but I have known  others, over the years who have joined who have joined. I consideredit,  but went a different path.   However, they had  spent several years, loved the experience and simply decided it was time to move on. Or back, as the case might be, to be closer to their families.
  North Korea is certainly led by a basket case. it would seem. However, I  would still like to visit it. All too often, what we are  told or read about is  so politicised, the real picture is  quite different.
 I am hoping to visit the country in the near future. It is complicated process, but achievable. A British  friend of mine went 2 years ago and was quite stricken  by the Western perception and the reality of actually being there and seeing how people really lived.  Not that he gave us a positive report, but  it was better than expected.
 Sadly, all too often, in my view,  massive social change  ends up in one-party rule whichr entails  power struggles and unstable leadership. There is littel or no acutal popular  support of decision
 in  how  such rule will mat affect the people who live in it.
  China may be an example of how this may actually work, but they are having struggles as well.
 I do not regard the  Soviet Union as a joke.  There were extremely serious mistakes. However, it was a great social experiment, again, ruined by politics & personalities. 
 As Alixz said, much the same as everywhere else.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline PAVLOV

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2010, 01:45:38 PM »
Actually Robert, I think the only reason why communism in its purest form has failed, is because human beings by their very nature, are materialistic, avaricious and driven by greed and a need for power over others. Lenin, Stalin and Hitler are prime examples. I dont think any of these gentlemen gave a **** for anyone other than themselves. So communism ended up an abandoned political experiment. Like an old piece of smelly cheese in the bottom of the fridge.

Take these human frailties away, and the experiment may have worked. ( Except in Hitlers case, nothing to do with communism of course, but the same personality disfunction as the other two).

Robert, I would personally, never, out of principle, put a foot in NK. Not for all the tea in China !
Mainly because they mistreat animals, and human beings, and the freak that runs the place is a monster of epic proportions..
I avoid buying anything made in Korea, and belong to an action group who advocate the same ethic.

But of course I hope you have a nice time, if you decide to go. Just avoid eating anything, you never know what it may be !!
That is not to say that all countries in the world are pristinely innocent of similar things, and one should therefore avoid going there, but NK just adds a whole new dimension to the word GROSS.   

Offline PAVLOV

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2010, 01:57:57 PM »
Constantinople, as I have said he is Jewish. He is also very fortuanate that his kibbutz is quite far away from most of the Palestinian rockets, so I envy him a bit. He used to be a very successful accountant, and is very grateful that he is not a victim of the recessions that hit the world with regularity..
He runs the laundry and is, by his own admission, a happy person.
Im not so sure I could cope with the laundry though. 

Alixz

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2010, 03:26:14 PM »
North Korea does not enjoy "Normal Trade Relations" with the United States, so any goods manufactured in North Korea are subject to a higher tariff upon entry to the United States.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2792.htm#econ

I don't believe that much of what is labeled to have been "made in Korea" is made in the North.  Perhaps there is a market route for items produced in North Korea to make it into South Korea and then into the US, but the realations between the north and south are not all that cordial so it might be a black market route.

In August 2009, Hyundai Group Chairwoman Hyun Jung-eun met with Kim Jong-il and obtained the release of a South Korean worker who had been detained in the D.P.R.K. since March. As part of those discussions, the D.P.R.K. expressed a willingness to resume tourism links and continue talks regarding the Kaesong Industrial Complex. The D.P.R.K. resumed normal cross-border passage to the KIC on September 1, 2009, and D.P.R.K. and R.O.K. officials conducted a joint visit to international industrial zones in China and Vietnam in December 2009. Between September 2009 and February 2010, D.P.R.K. and R.O.K. officials had several meetings to discuss joint tourism projects, the Kaesong Industrial Complex, and other issues. However, the talks resulted in no progress.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 03:28:27 PM by Alixz »

Constantinople

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2010, 04:06:40 PM »
don't give up on the Great Leader, just when you thought it was a basket case, this happens

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/italian-restaurant-opens-in-north-korea-20090314-8yg9.html

I couldnt find it but there was an hilarious story about the NK secret service hiring two italian chefs and their time in NK


Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2010, 05:22:38 PM »
 I remember the Italian chefs story, Const.  2 of my dear friends in London were interviewed  for the posts! Their  newly opened restaurant was a hit [and a LOT of work]  and popular with several in the diplomatic community. They declined, if every actually offered, as they of course preferred to stay in London.
  BTW way, I think Kim  is now "Supreme" Leader, having graduated form "Great" and before that "Intelligent" leader. All of which talents are  very questionable.
 Not to worry, Pavlov. Any visit I may make would be   state controlled, as was my friend's.  He had no choice in where to eat [hotel for foreigners only] or what to see.   After 5 days, as I recall, he was quite bored, but it was an experience, to say the least.  He was amazed by the massive  stadium displays.  I think he was there for a  Kim birthday, which Kim was not actually at,  causing speculation about his  health.
 Anyway, he [my friend] was interested in  exploring  North Korean food, being a foodie,  but had not much of an experience of the  true stuff. I understand that it is supposed to make the South  seem mild!
  But, back to Communism: it  can work, in stages, as I see it. Massive social upheaval and violations of cultural & traditional and lifestyle are too much for most people to handle. In societies such as Russia & China, it is more of a struggle.  Leadership becomes more focused on self-progating survival than the  ultimate goal of a prosperous  & thriving community.
 In  cases such as Mugabeland, we see pure greed, self interest and fear not to  even get into blatant racism, more in place than any  former communist state- including   the DRNK. That is one country I would definitely avaoid.
 
 
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Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2010, 05:28:18 PM »
...[in part]....
 
 Communism, on the other hand is definitely a political goal.   Abolition of classes and private property.  "to each according to  his/her needs, from each from his/ her ability?  is the idealistic  maxim. Usually a one-party state and controlled by  strongmen tactics.  Good intentions ruined by   megalomaniacs all too often.
 True  communism  is a goal that has never been achieved on any large scale. IMO, North Korea and pehaps Zibabwe are the  best examples of  attempts to achieve that state, and  both are tragic failures.
....

Are the modern day communists working with different doctrines then the early communists under Lenin and / or Stalin?  I don't think they are, therefore,  I'm at a lost to discover "good intentions" in anything they did, are doing or will do.  

Robert used the    "abolition of classes" as an example.   Communism has just one way of accomplishing this task.   They take everything, even lives, from the rich with the promise they were/ are going to give it [land, money... used  boots] to the poor which is a lie because they give it to themselves  without a flicker of remorse.    So,  I believe,  this kind of  action  by humans is  horrific and can never be justified.   Just in Russia  such action by the communist  cost  millions and millions of innoscent lives.   So, this alone  should  be one of the top ten  reason why communism has and will always fail in small groups  to the large countries.

I am totally against communism in any form that it takes.

AGRBear  


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