Author Topic: Why doesn't communism work?  (Read 134482 times)

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2010, 06:05:58 PM »
 Then, Bear, you are against  convents  & monasteries as well?  They are communal societies.
 You are looking at the issue from a prejudicial  angle, not the idealistic goal.
 I could easily cite examples of  capitalistic and racial exploitation,  such as  appropriation of native lands and whole nationalities.
  As well as resources.  For the  goal and  pleasure for privileged classes, including us.
 Blind sided  opinion is not  objective.
 There are more than 2 sides to a story in most cases.  More than 2 to look at and analyse.

 

 
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Alixz

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2010, 06:54:09 AM »
I belive that Kim is known as "Dear Leader".  Sounds like Orwell to me.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 08:55:30 AM by Alixz »

Constantinople

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2010, 09:48:54 AM »
Actually, Orwell used the BBC as his model for 1984

Offline TimM

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2010, 12:10:05 PM »
Quote
I belive that Kim iis known as "Dear Leader

Yeah, he is.  His old man, Kim Il Sung, was the Great Leader and is now President Eternal.  They've basically built a religion around him.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2010, 12:48:50 PM »
Then, Bear, you are against  convents  & monasteries as well?  They are communal societies.
 You are looking at the issue from a prejudicial  angle, not the idealistic goal.
 ...[in part]...

Unless I've been mislead, I believe  here in the US  each adult person has the  freedom of choice and they can avoid or become a part of convents, monasteries or other communal socities.  Therefore,  if an adult  wishes to subject themselves to communal societies,  they do so willingly.   If one lives under communist rule,  a person is told what to do, when to do it and how they will do it,  (whatever "it" is).  There is no freedom of choice.  This kind of demand by the communists leaders means they are the master and their underlings are the slaves.   And,  I'm sure no one reading this wants to be anyone's slave.  

This is the second reason why   I am  "prejudice toward communism".  

AGRBear


  




« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 12:56:28 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2010, 01:11:07 PM »
Well, Bear, yes, Communist states were enforced policy,  but no one was  forced to become slaves, nor even  join the party.  It was wise, for enhancement in one's career, but not necessary.
  And, as Americans, we have no room whatsoever to  talk about  slavery without looking our own past and current  relations  between our  various communities.
 As far as positive advancements go,  some states, including the USSR,   built more hospitals, schools and scholarships that the Western regimes ever provided. I am not saying this was without purpose,  and they did provide arms top match those provided by the West.
 You can see the unfortunate results of the sad rivalry in the  current world  situation. What a waste of talents and resources, from all sides.

 
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2010, 01:24:56 PM »
TimM....without consulting Wkipaedia,  Kim  Jong-Il, was
 Dear Leader from  the early 70's until 1994
  Intelligent Leader  from 73-84
  Great Leader 94 to present and
 Supreme Leader since 2009.
  So, he has not been "dear leader" for a while.
 I asked a Korean  friend of mine, who does translating for me, He may have, however consulted the net.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2010, 01:57:12 PM »
...[in part]...
 I could easily cite examples of  capitalistic and racial exploitation,  such as  appropriation of native lands and whole nationalities.
  As well as resources.  For the  goal and  pleasure for privileged classes, including us.
 Blind sided  opinion is not  objective.
 There are more than 2 sides to a story in most cases.  More than 2 to look at and analyse.


I assure you I haven't turned a blind eye to the histories of the US or others.  I am well aware of the fact that  cave   dwellers to modern day leaders have exploited other people,  resources, etc. etc. etc..  Humans can be cruel to everyone and everything around them  when  they believe they can continue to do as they please, when they please,  and no one is going to stop them.  I am the first to say    set all our mistakes into stone for all to see.  It's best that the  generations not yet born see them and realize no country is without flaws.   I believe, people should learn from the mistakes of others.  Look at Russia.  They evidently learned a lesson about being ruled by communists.  "...the Constitutional Court of Russia ruled that Communists were free to meet on a local level but the Communist  Party, as a national entity, was illegal."

AGRBear
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2010, 02:09:45 PM »
Well, Bear, yes, Communist states were enforced policy,  but no one was  forced to become slaves, nor even  join the party.  It was wise, for enhancement in one's career, but not necessary.

..[in part..]

"It was wise, for enhancement in one's career..."

Is that saying something like,  "If you don't join us then you can't be a part of us?"  If  this is so, then it  means that no matter what you want to do,  you can't because you're not part of the Communist Party who, in case you're not aware,  just happens to be the leaders of everything in this world you're defending.

AGRBear



"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2010, 02:20:34 PM »
No, Bear, it is not. Again, you are showing your bias.
  Many, MANY people gained sucess in various fields without being Party members. Most people, in everyday lives were NOT members  yet enjoyed the benefits the system  provided.   Woefully missed now.
  My comment was specific to  those interested on high level government work.
 Actually, it was not  easy to  join the Party. It took time, study and  commitment.
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Offline TimM

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2010, 03:08:09 PM »
 
Quote
Kim  Jong-Il, was
 Dear Leader from  the early 70's until 1994
  Intelligent Leader  from 73-84
  Great Leader 94 to present and
 Supreme Leader since 2009.
  So, he has not been "dear leader" for a while.

Whatever, it's just some fancy titles he's given himself, like his father before him.  In many ways, these guys are like an imperial dynasty, in that the title of ruler passed from father to son, and one of Kim Jong Il's sons is waiting in the wings to take over when he dies.
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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2010, 03:48:42 PM »
Most of the people who succeeded in Communist countries were definitely communist members.  people who did not join teh communist party of the pioneers (young communists) were denied access to the best training and education.  I lived in Poland in 1990 and Czechoslovakia from 1992 to 1996 just after the end of communism and a lot of people lied that they werent members of the communist party or the secret police but every single successful person I met had been a member, the truth didnt always come out at first but when you got to know them well enough it did.

Offline TimM

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2010, 03:53:28 PM »
Quote
I lived in Poland in 1990 and Czechoslovakia from 1992 to 1996 just after the end of communism and a lot of people lied that they werent members of the communist party or the secret police


Sounds like Germany after World War II, in which you couldn't find many people who admitted to being Nazis.
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Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2010, 04:10:51 PM »
As far as positive advancements go,  some states, including the USSR,   built more hospitals, schools and scholarships that the Western regimes ever provided. I am not saying this was without purpose,  and they did provide arms top match those provided by the West.
 

Robert, you seems to be a rather intelligent man...

That's why these words about "hospitals" and "schools" are very strange to hear for me. Where/when did you heard about these mysterious "hospitals"? Have you ever been in USSR? In the real villages or simple cities? Maybe you saw them (these hospitals) by your own eyes? If seriously, then my repressed Russian ancestors (Soviet officers and other simple people) didn't saw these things. They were repressed without any hospitals...

Nothing personal, but it also seems to me that this too left-wing utopian position is slightly boring and not relevant (however common among even intelligent people). All the information about communism and other "ideas" is open, but someone still shows us that everything there was not bad at all;). It also rather good position to talk about mysterious "hospitals", being in prosperous UK or USA. Nothing personal again. I wish only for all, who are still dreaming about these sweet ideas not to experience it in your own life.
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why doesn't communism work?
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2010, 05:19:44 PM »
TimM. Those silly titles sound much better in Korean.  Very poetic,  and actually do derive from titles given  to Korean  kings.
 And, there actually were not  that many  Nazi party members. It was a closed and exclusive  membership.
  Nicola,  no, I have never been to the USSR, I have been to Russia though., since the fall of the Soviet system. However, as I mentioned some time ago,  when I was a student in Wash. D.C., I became good friends with a couple of members of the staff at the  Soviet Embassy. They were very open about their lives in the USSR,  Pluses & minuses. I have been to some remote villages in Russia, however.   One of my friends has taken me to visit friends and such.
 There is nothing mysterious about the  Soviet built  hospitals and  college/universities. They were mainly in  Africa,  Southeast Asia and  the Carib. [That I know of].  I think most have been renamed and are probably struggling now.  And, by "Soviet", I do not exclude other countries.  The work by Cuba and Bulgaria in the same vein and have been  in the news.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.