Author Topic: Maria Feodorovna after the war  (Read 34529 times)

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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 04:54:51 PM »
Indeed you answered the question already. After Marie's death, the content of the jewel box was taken to England where they were sold. Queen Mary bought quite a few and others were bought by others. If Empress Marie had not given the ok for the jewels to be held in trust by George V, they could not no authority to dispose the contents. It is as simple as that. Even Olga said she did not see the jewels before they were sold. As the benificary she should be consulted before hand. This proves that an agreement had been reached before hand with the British Royal Family, who had been paying the empress an income during her lifetime.

This has been gone over, quite in depthly, on other threads. GV didn't dispose of the contents--the opening of the jewel case was done in the presence of Xenia, who seemed to handle the bulk of the jewels since all unsold went back to her. This was noted in the copious records kept by the auction company and later put into William Clarke's book.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 05:01:37 PM »
Yes, but why wasn't Olga notified ? She was one of the beneficires of her mother's estate. Either Xenia stole the contents without notifying her sister or the British Royal Family was involved with understanding from Empress Marie. That misunderstanding led to the accusation (yes it was explained in the Clark book) that Queen Mary got the jewels at knock down prices. Also Olga wasn't paid her share until years later. That was paid by Queen Mary's granddaughter Queen Elizabeth II out of her own pocket.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 08:59:34 PM »
As I said, there are other threads for this. It has also been laid to rest the idea that Olga was paid some difference by EII. This is apparently not true. Whatever Olga did or didn't get from the jewels, Hvidore, etc....was between herself and Xenia. It was their poor communication that led to much of the confusion, as well as a misinterpretation of Ponsonby's recollections as well as the difference in initial valuation and the amount actually obtained. If Olga had pursued the matter more forcefully in her lifetime, rather than waiting to make the accusations in Vorres book, when most participants were deceased, matters probably would've been explained to her, and her heirs's, satisfaction. As it was, the misinterpretation was allowed to grow and bloom. I never particularly cared for this aspect of Olga's behavior, personally, but I also wasn't in her head. Also, to me at least, seemed very indicative of the state of relations between Olga and both her mother and her sister.

ANYWAY, back to topic. Anything further can be routed to one of the many threads on the discussion.

Marie spent a good deal of time in England, at least until the early 1920s. Then her sister's health began to go into serious decline and the 2 began to get on each other's nerves. After about 1923, Marie spent most of her time in Denmark. Prior to that, she was a frequent guest in England and was seen at many royal events, including several royal weddings. Since Xenia spent most of her time in England, Marie saw her quite frequently during this period. I'm not sure how often mother & daughter met afterwards or how much time she then spent with her Denmark-living daughter Olga. The 2 were together for Olga's cousin Margarethe's wedding.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 09:34:18 PM by grandduchessella »
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Offline ashdean

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2010, 03:09:32 AM »
Indeed you answered the question already. After Marie's death, the content of the jewel box was taken to England where they were sold. Queen Mary bought quite a few and others were bought by others. If Empress Marie had not given the ok for the jewels to be held in trust by George V, they could not no authority to dispose the contents. It is as simple as that. Even Olga said she did not see the jewels before they were sold. As the benificary she should be consulted before hand. This proves that an agreement had been reached before hand with the British Royal Family, who had been paying the empress an income during her lifetime.
Olga KNEW and AGREED the jewels should go to London.....it was only the details of the disposal in England that was (wrongly)kept from Olga.George V did not hold the money in trust...a trust was set up for the sisters....AND..NOWHERE EVER have I read that Marir organised or agreed to the gems being held as security by the british royal family...she no doubt hoped that they would be properly sold and perhaps thought the british might be the best help in the process but nowhere was it said she had used them as collaterall with anyone for any loan!.
Im sure you are a well read man Eric but yr NOT the only one and you ARE NOT going brow beat me into believing what you choose to be YOUR version of events.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2010, 11:59:58 AM »
Nobody is going to beat anybody here. What I am saying is that. According the books on Marie & Alexandra. Marie had been spending whatever she had in great speed (mostly towards Russian exiles and their charities). King George V assigned someone to look after the finances of his aunt Minny, and all three (Queen Alexandra, Queen Mary & King George V himself) established a fund out of their pockets for the aging empress. I remember that person took control of the expenses and left over money each month was given to Marie to spend on whatever she pleases. In this way the British Royal Family has control over her affairs already. The Trust thing I believe (personally) was done to ward off the advances of King Christian X of Denmark, who wished to get a piece of the pie and asked for his aunts jewels to be sold (she was living under his roof in the Amalianborg Palace). With the Brotish Royal Family in on the case, it would give the Empress some peace & protection from her erring nephew. After the death of the Empress, the jewels were not sold in Denmark, but spirited out of the country to be sold in Britian, where Queen Mary (not Queen Alexandrine) got first pick. Also Xenia lived in Britian as guest of the King but not Olga. The whole affair is a bit muddled. I don't blame Olga at all, although I find Xenia a tad sneaky in the whole incident.

Indeed Marie lived up her life in Denmark. Thyra did visit her a few times, but Alexandra didn't I think.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2010, 12:26:25 PM »
Queen Alexandrine doesn't seem to have bought any, so 'first pick' probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway. Queen Mary bought a total of 3 items and paid at or above price--there's been some talk that some items were not listed and perhaps dealt with privately for whatever reason. Perhaps Christian X wouldn't have been as generous--that was apparently part of the concern, wasn't it? That he would deduct some of the upkeep of his aunt from the proceeds? And Olga chose to live in Denmark while Xenia chose England. Olga probably would have been given the same consideration had she wanted to stay there. There's nothing shady or muddled in Xenia living as a 'guest' of the British royals. Olga was more independent and had a very young family. Xenia's children were already marrying or going off to school.

A jewel discussion for those interested, it lists the complete inventory of MF's jewels, what they were appraised at, what they sold for and which ones British royals bought:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=567.150
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2010, 12:40:19 PM »
Thanks. I am not saying that it "was" shady. It just "looks" that way.When WWII came, Olga had to leave Denmark. The British could not offer her safety there so she had to go to Canada. It decision ultimately led to her dying alone in Toronto. With Xenia at the bosom of the British Royal Family, I could believe why she would be suspicious of the different treatment of the sisters and why it took so many years before the money from the jewels came to her. It did "look bad" there is no two ways to it.

Offline ashdean

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2010, 01:42:59 PM »
Queen Alexandrine doesn't seem to have bought any, so 'first pick' probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway. Queen Mary bought a total of 3 items and paid at or above price--there's been some talk that some items were not listed and perhaps dealt with privately for whatever reason. Perhaps Christian X wouldn't have been as generous--that was apparently part of the concern, wasn't it? That he would deduct some of the upkeep of his aunt from the proceeds? And Olga chose to live in Denmark while Xenia chose England. Olga probably would have been given the same consideration had she wanted to stay there. There's nothing shady or muddled in Xenia living as a 'guest' of the British royals. Olga was more independent and had a very young family. Xenia's children were already marrying or going off to school.

A jewel discussion for those interested, it lists the complete inventory of MF's jewels, what they were appraised at, what they sold for and which ones British royals bought:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=567.150

Perhaps Alexandrine (who had a quantity of fine jewels inherited from her Romanov mother was not interested in any more gems...perhaps indeed she and Christian did not have the spare cash...

Offline ashdean

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2010, 01:47:20 PM »
Queen Alexandrine doesn't seem to have bought any, so 'first pick' probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway. Queen Mary bought a total of 3 items and paid at or above price--there's been some talk that some items were not listed and perhaps dealt with privately for whatever reason. Perhaps Christian X wouldn't have been as generous--that was apparently part of the concern, wasn't it? That he would deduct some of the upkeep of his aunt from the proceeds? And Olga chose to live in Denmark while Xenia chose England. Olga probably would have been given the same consideration had she wanted to stay there. There's nothing shady or muddled in Xenia living as a 'guest' of the British royals. Olga was more independent and had a very young family. Xenia's children were already marrying or going off to school.

A jewel discussion for those interested, it lists the complete inventory of MF's jewels, what they were appraised at, what they sold for and which ones British royals bought:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=567.150

Olga was indeed more independant and her life in Denmark was much quieter...more to her liking and then of course she had her husbands input to consider. Im sure if she had come to Uk she would have been recieved kindly by her Royal kin.

Offline rosieposie

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2010, 04:10:27 PM »
I watched also on the doc that Olga A's first husband was a closet homosexual and that they never consumated, Olga had her own wing and her husband had his.   They were just friends and they had their own reasons for marriage. 

With possessiveness of MF over Olga A,  do you think that MF knew about Olga's first husband having homosexual or tendancys that he wouldn't get physically close with Olga A?

Yes I can see why MF would dislike or be jealous of Olga's second husband.   After all the guy really did love her but I think MF couldn't see passed it.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2010, 07:29:10 PM »
It was a revealation that MF did not force Olga to marry Peter Oldenburg because she want to keep her close to her. For Olga it was either a gay husband or no husband like poor Toria. I think Peter really loved her in his own way, when he fell for Kilokufsky. He provided them a promixity of respectability while the affair was conducting under his nose. Olga returned the Oldenburg jewels after the divorce and happy that her ex-husband lived well at the proceeds from the sale. It was a friendship marriage.

As for the jewels, it was inparitive that King Christian X not get his hands on them. It was this reason the British Royal Family came in and protect the interests of MF and her heirs. Although it looks like only Xenia benifitted from the sale of jewels. Olga had every right to be bitter about how the affair was handled.

BTW Queen Alexandrine had quite a lot of Romanov jewels through her mother Grand Duchess Anastasia Mikailovna(apart from the collection of Queen Louise and pool from Queen Lovisa). She did not need to buy more. However she did not lay eyes on them though.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2010, 09:10:46 PM »
This topic is getting waaaay off-track--first the jewels (I'm not even going to respond to some of those comments anymore since I've directed anyone who wants to discuss it to the proper thread)and then Olga's marriage (which also has a thread). Back to MF's life after the war.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2010, 05:35:38 PM »
Yes. Back to Marie after the war. She did make visits to her Danish relatives and being photographed in big groups. I wonder who was her Danish favourite ? Maybe Queen Alexandrine ?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2010, 05:57:57 PM »
Why would you think Alexandrine? I would perhaps her German ties would be difficult--though her brother was married to Marie's niece. I'm sure her favorite Danish relation was her brother Waldemar.  :)
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Offline kmerov

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Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2010, 06:52:46 PM »
Why would you think Alexandrine? I would perhaps her German ties would be difficult--though her brother was married to Marie's niece. I'm sure her favorite Danish relation was her brother Waldemar.  :)

Yes, you are right. Waldemar was her favorite, and then his children. I don't think she had anything against Alexandrine (although MF though she ought to spend more time with her mother in-law). She didn't like Grand Duke Friedrich Franz IV.

MF liked Christian X but not his humor, and she was often embarresed when he would say something that she thought inapropiate.

And regarding GDss Olga, I think she did have some liberty in her relationship with her mother. When she didn't want to attend some royal event, she didn't and MF accepted it.