Author Topic: Amur Cossack Uniforms  (Read 12923 times)

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Offline Mike Blake

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Amur Cossack Uniforms
« on: February 20, 2010, 09:08:29 AM »
Back after a break, once more seeking help from the resident experts, please.

The Amur Cossacks wore a (unique?) low wide fur cap, Does anyone have a picture showing details?

Did the Amur wear the cherkessa and beshmet in any order of dress?

Does anyone have any photos or illustrations of Amur Cossacks, preferably on military service?

Thanks for any help anyone can give. I don't read Russian but can get it translated by a Russian friend (unfortunately not remotely interested in Russian military uniforms!).

Mike (Blake - the non-expert Mike!)

Offline IainM

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 09:56:35 AM »
Hi Mike,

There is some information on this web site http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Cossack.

Regards

IainM

Offline Mike

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 12:32:26 PM »
From Mike to Mike:

The mounted soldier is an Amur cossack, ca. 1905.

Offline IainM

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Offline Mike Blake

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 04:46:14 AM »
Many thanks for these leads. I will take a look at them all.
Have just realised why I wasn't getting alerts to responses to my postings - not only was my email address in my profile wrong, it was an old one as well, so doubly incorrect!  I have updated and should now get alerts properly, and so will respond less tardily.

Mike

Offline Mike Blake

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 05:15:48 AM »
Oddly, no mentions of the unique kolpak shape? A plate in the NYPL Vinkhuizen Collection of military uniforms (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/explore/?collection=UniformsandRegimenta&col_id=206) taken from what looks like a Moritz Ruhl original clearly shows it, as does another in same collection of what looks like an earlier set of schematics like the Schenk ones for 1910. It seems odd that it is not  mentioned in the uniforms described in the links?

The Osprey plate also conflates the Trans-baikal, Amur and Ussuri into one regiment, whereas in 1900 at least they appear to have been separate regiments? Can anyone clarify, please?

Also in the same plate, the Siberian officer is described as being in a sea-green chekmen. Is that because all Siberian chekmen, officers and men, were sea-green, or just the officers, because the latter's uniforms were usually more optically green than the virtuallly black green of the men's?

And - same plate, the officer of the 2nd Verkhne-Udinsk Trans-Baikal regiment has very blue trousers, rather than blue-grey, which are how the trousers are usually described? Does anyone know whether the Lt Baron von Eske depicted was  in the regiment in 1900 and leading his scouts then?

BTW - how do I insert an image - I tried to do it with the  plates I mention but could not get drag and drop or the 'Insert Image' icon to work???

Mike

Offline Rdr. Michael Malama

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 01:05:00 PM »
Also in the same plate, the Siberian officer is described as being in a sea-green chekmen. Is that because all Siberian chekmen, officers and men, were sea-green, or just the officers, because the latter's uniforms were usually more optically green than the virtuallly black green of the men's?

Chekmen is worn only by Kuban and Tersk cossacks.

Uniform of Semirechensk, Amur, Oussoury and Siberian cossacks has the same color scheme: sea-green for officers and darker green for ordinary cossacks.
We serve the Great Sovereign formidably and fairly, as in the past times, by the order of our ancestors.

Offline Mike

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 01:29:57 PM »
Chekmen is worn only by Kuban and Tersk cossacks.
Just the opposite. All "plain" hosts [степовые] - Don, Ussuri, Ural, Semirechensk etc. - wore chekmens, while Caucasian hosts - Terek and Kuban - wore beshmets and cherkeskas.

Offline Rdr. Michael Malama

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2010, 02:59:51 AM »
"Along with ordinary chekmens, there are honorary chekmens. The latter was awarded to the KKV members who occupy public offices in stanicas and khutoras. <...> Red beshmet for this decorated chekmen also had galloon trimming. "
     
     Орлов П.П. Справочная книжка для Кубанского казачьего войска. Екатеринодар, 1910. С. 25, 381.
We serve the Great Sovereign formidably and fairly, as in the past times, by the order of our ancestors.

Offline Mike

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2010, 04:57:51 AM »
Right, the term "chekmen" was often used as a synonim for "cherkeska". But, prior to 1907 when the chekmen was abandoned for "plains" hosts, its only official use related to the type of garment shown here. The caption reads: A Don uryadnik [NCO] in a uniform chekmen. The arm chevrons are for the length of service.

One can easily find many references to chekmen as part of Don, Orenburg, Urals and other plains hosts' uniform.

Offline Rdr. Michael Malama

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2010, 05:27:57 AM »
the term "chekmen" was often used as a synonim for "cherkeska".
One can easily find many references to chekmen as part of Don, Orenburg, Urals and other plains hosts' uniform.

All right. The misunderstanding rose from the interchange of the terms. My understanding was that Don, Orenbourg and other cossacks use a shorter form of original chekmen otherwise called cossack kaftans.

Here's a witness of M. Lermontov that Kuban cossacks also had chekmens:

Чекмень
Кто ж этот путник? русский? нет.
На нем чекмень, простой бешмет.
Чело под шапкою косматой;
Ножны кинжала, пистолет
Блестят насечкой небогатой:
И перетянут он ремнем,
И шашка чуть звенит на нем.
М. Ю. Лермонтов. Измаил-Бей. Часть первая. 12. 1832
We serve the Great Sovereign formidably and fairly, as in the past times, by the order of our ancestors.

Offline Mike

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2010, 05:56:49 AM »
Что с него взять - поэт-с... At that time, the terms for cossack and mountaineers' garments weren't yet established - like their uniforms. During Nicholas I's inspection of Caucasian troops in Gelendzhik in 1837, he was shocked by the lack of compliance with official uniform regulations.

Offline Rdr. Michael Malama

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2010, 07:15:10 AM »
Что с него взять - поэт-с...

Well, he was actually a real fighting officer. I read once in someone's reminiscences that he was in a unit which in modern language would be termed as a special force (specnaz).
We serve the Great Sovereign formidably and fairly, as in the past times, by the order of our ancestors.

Offline Mike

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2010, 07:49:41 AM »
Fighting soldiers are rarely experts on uniforms and ceremonies.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Amur Cossack Uniforms
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2010, 08:30:40 AM »
Fighting soldiers are too busy fighting. Also, I don't know about other armies, but in the British Army there is certainly a 'thing' about wearing slightly non-standard kit when you know you can get away with it! For instance, Rifles' officers have a 'thing' about wearing sidehats with combat kit instead of berets.

Ann