Author Topic: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined  (Read 37724 times)

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2010, 12:46:46 AM »
Lisa, I understand where euphoria could over power reasonable thinking, especially when it comes to Anna A etc,. What, though, is the thinking of the Church? Church authorities are pretty adamant that a scar has to be there - to the point that they are making its resolve a condition for them to finally accept the buried bodies, at the Peter and Paul Cathedral, to be the Royal Family's. How can they be made to accept that, as you say, a scar doesn't necessarily need to be there?
And, if all the DNA facts are there, why are they continuing to refuse to accept the findings if this scar thing can't be proved? JonC.

Whose euphoria would that be, JonC? If you're referring to me - I have been kept informed about tests on the Ekaterinburg remains for many years. I have yet to get euphoric! For your information, I am one of several historians who have seriously studied the AA case as well as the stories of perhaps a dozen claimants with an open mind and very reasonable thinking. After years of study, I am of the opinion that the IF died together that night. I have no agenda to prove, no tickets to sell, and if someone can come up with a plausible survivor story that includes the DNA tests already done, I am one of few people who would listen.

As I am not Orthodox nor Russian, I have no insights into the thinking of the Church. But, I am disturbed that they are trying to wantonly destroy the Pig's Meadow burial site because they think the family was permantently buried at the 4 Brothers. I would never advocate destroying either site. I wonder, what are they afriad of? And why do they irrationally insist on asking for proof that it has been medically established could not exist? It's as though they're withholding approval until I can prove I have a Y chromosone? I have been assured by all the teams of scientists that the DNA tests for all the victims is there.

The only way I know todeal with irrationaity is with rationality. Now, what is your agenda here, Jon C?


Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2010, 12:54:42 AM »
From Interfax:
19 March 2010, 15:48

Court rules to close criminal case into Emperor Nicholas II's murder (updated)

Moscow, March 19, Interfax - Moscow's Basmanny Court has upheld the ruling to close the criminal case related to the killing of the last Russian Tsar Nicholas II and his family.

"The court refused to qualify the decision to close this criminal case as unlawful," the Russian imperial family's defense lawyer German Lukyanov told Interfax on Friday.

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, who was seeking to contest the investigative authorities' decision on closing the criminal case at the Basmanny Court, intends to go to the Moscow City Court to appeal the ruling.

"The court assumed the position of the Prosecutor General's Office and the Investigative Committee within the Russian prosecution system and disregarded a ruling by the Supreme Court presidium, which ruled to rehabilitate Nicholas II and his family members," Lukyanov said.

See: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=7053

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2010, 05:55:44 PM »
Hello John! But this has to do with the murder of the Emperor and his family, not with the identification of their remains.

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2010, 01:35:27 AM »

Hello John! But this has to do with the murder of the Emperor and his family, not with the identification of their remains.



No matter which way you cut it... whether it has to do with the murders... or whether it has to do with the forensic identification of the victims of those same murders... this is still about the fact that both Georgy and his mother Maria are continuing to do everything they can to re-open the case.

You cannot split hairs here. You cannot separate the question of the criminality of those deaths from the identification of the victims.  It is the very identification of those same victims that now raises the issues currently being challenged in the courts by both Georgy and his mother Maria.

If those same victims' remains had been identified as anyone else, then the questions about this case now being challenged in the courts in Moscow never would have been raised in the first place. 

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2010, 11:06:25 AM »
But John, scientists have not identified the remains as anyone else! They are the Imperial Family, and to suggest otherwise is to question the integrity of some very brilliant scientists - and I won't let you get away with that.

The Grand Duchess and her son are now in the uncomfortable position of having publically bet on the wrong horse, thanks to following the lead of the former Patriarch. Calling for reopening the case is at best an attempt to save face, and I am accepting it as that and nothing more.

I'm not splitting hairs - I am merely stating fact. The Yekaterinburg remains belong to the Imperial Family. No link to the criminal prosecution of their murderers. I will leave those people to our God.

I am not opposed to reopening any case if it can lead to productive results, but I'm just not seeing what it could accomplish. Care to enlighten us, John?

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2010, 01:39:25 AM »

But John, scientists have not identified the remains as anyone else! They are the Imperial Family, and to suggest otherwise is to question the integrity of some very brilliant scientists - and I won't let you get away with that.


Get away with what? :-)  I'm just saying... if those remains had been identified as anyone else... which they haven't... then the question of the criminality of the murders now being raised by the self-proclaimed "Grand Duchess" Maria Vladimirovna never would have been questioned in today's courts to start with and would not now be an issue.  

Quote

I'm not splitting hairs - I am merely stating fact. The Yekaterinburg remains belong to the Imperial Family. No link to the criminal prosecution of their murderers.


The identification of the Ekaterinburg remains cannot be separated from the fact that the Moscow Prosecutors' office had decided to re-open the investigation of the murders when the DNA investigation was first started and then to close it again once the DNA identification of those same remains had been concluded.  

If the Ekaterinburg remains had not been found... if the Ekaterinburg remains had not been identified as the Romanovs... In either case,
the criminal investigation of their murders never would have been re-opened by the Moscow Prosecutors' office in the first place... and this would not now be an issue.

Quote

I am not opposed to reopening any case if it can lead to productive results, but I'm just not seeing what it could accomplish. Care to enlighten us, John?


Wish I could.  I have no more insight as to why Maria Vladimirovna is continuing to pursue her challenge of the Moscow Prosecutor's closing of the murder investigation... or her challenge of the identification... than you do.

That's why I had posted these particular news items, hoping for some new discussion of the issue that might finally shed some light on what Maria Vladimirovna actually now hopes to gain by continuing with her challenge, given the current circumstances.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 01:44:56 AM by J_Kendrick »

Offline Michael HR

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2010, 09:39:44 AM »
Maria Vladimirovna does seem to come across as rather stupid on this topic and defied the views of just about everyone else. This whole incident has done her no good in my view and she should simply say that she was mistaken in her views and apologize. Do you really think the whole Romanov family as is, Prince Michael of kent etc would have attended if there had been the slightest doubt of who the remains where? The Church has simply made it self look ridiculous and Maria Vladimirovna joining with them has done the same. You would think that her son would have had more sense than this. Oh dear
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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2010, 10:55:41 AM »
To be honest, I find the whole affair silly. It reminds me of the old Rabbi's arguing for years over how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin. Georgy doesn't have a drop of Romanov blood in his veins. There will never again BE a House of Romanov with any meaning or political power regardless of the validity of the Vladimir line claim or not (which I personally as said side with Spiridovitch's view of the Tchecheglovitov report EXCLUDING Maria P's sons) , the family has no substantial fortune to claim, the DNA testing is beyond conclusive. And frankly, who cares WHAT Maria or Georgy say? I sure don't. So, what's the point? I see none.

The Church has its own internal issues which are not aired to the public, including their own complicity and inaction to do anything to safeguard the Titular Head of their Church Nicholas II. They have a lot to answer for if they admit the reality of the DNA testing IMO...and they don't want to deal with it.


Offline Dominic_Albanese

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2010, 06:30:13 PM »
I agree with you Rob, and frankly think it is shameful that anyone would even think about digging this family up AGAIN.  My god, let them rest in peace (and this is from a non-believer).  ANY credibility Maria and George had in my eyes for trying to create a meaningful place in Russia for that line of the Romanov family has been lost in this shameful publicity attempt.

dca

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2010, 08:06:41 PM »
Count me in as well. I agree, there is simply no claim to anything. Plus I have lost interest in the whole thing.
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Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2010, 11:42:40 PM »
If this mother /son duo  had any brains, they would be advocating that Alexis and his sister join the rest of the family ...not this ridiculousness. If the Imperial Family  is disturbed for this farce , then we'll have 7 family members not laid to rest instead of current 2, which is bad enough...and the remains of the whole family will be held hostage for God knows how long ...which is intolerable. Hasn't this family suffered enough captivity?

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Offline Margot

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2010, 04:08:13 AM »
Oooo....I have just woken again after a lovely doze from this tiresome subject! Can't believe it is still running! Yawn!!!!!.......I shall take another nap and hope that the gratingly 'Suburban Matron' self proclaimed heiress who wears too much makeup to be anything other than what she really is (Im My Personal Opinion) and her nickel dealing "Yes Mama three bags full Mama' son have stopped stooping to such depths of 'self promoting' themselves when I next wake up and deign to pop onto this thread! Gosh it is numbingly tedious, tiresome, evidently self-serving, boring and ultimately and most pertinently a complete and utter disservice to the entire former Imperial Family IMHO!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 04:16:49 AM by Margot »

Offline rgt9w

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2010, 07:20:55 AM »
Quote
Georgy doesn't have a drop of Romanov blood in his veins.


I'm not familiar with Georgy's heritage, can someone explain the quote?

Offline Margot

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2010, 07:32:46 AM »
Quote
Georgy doesn't have a drop of Romanov blood in his veins.


I'm not familiar with Georgy's heritage, can someone explain the quote?

I refer you to this thread!

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=83.510

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Georgy wants the Ekaterinburg remains re-examined
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2010, 07:43:04 PM »
Quote
Georgy doesn't have a drop of Romanov blood in his veins.


I'm not familiar with Georgy's heritage, can someone explain the quote?

This is simply untrue. From Alexander II: Alexander II - Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich - Grand Duke Kiril Vladimirovch - Grand Duke Vladimir Kirilovich - Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna - Grand Duke George. By my reckoning, this makes George the great-great-great grandson of the Tsar Liberator.

So, while I may disagree with some of their positions, there is no doubt that both MV and GM are genuine Romanovs.