Author Topic: Tatiana Photographs III  (Read 477953 times)

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Offline edubs31

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #660 on: March 18, 2015, 01:04:37 PM »
The more photos I see of them, the more mundane they seem to me.

And the more mundane NAOTMAA seem to me, the more fascinating does Russia itself seem.

I'm fairly certainly I'm going to regret asking you this...but how so?

LOL, you know me now!
Maybe because all these endless pictures of each other make them appear self-centred, like modern selfie teens? It also underlines how they lived in a cocoon. And crossing breaking out of this shell, crossing this boundary seems so fascinating. My homeland Norway shares a border with Russia, but the country on the other side is as strange to me as Deep Russia must have been to NAOTMAA.

Fair points. I have to say that a part of me looks at these photos with a certain degree of pity. Not because I can't get their tragic deaths out of my mind but because, as you say, they appear as much caged birds as free-spirited youth. Their smiles perhaps betraying their inner anguish. But therein lies my fascination with them as well. What's Olga thinking? What is Alexandra feeling? What is Nicholas putting out of his mind? And Alexei. Has any child lived a more bizarre existence than the last Tsarevich of Russia?

I'm naturally drawn to this element. Not just because they take pretty pictures. But the sheer number of photographs we have, and what each of those reveals (and doesn't reveal) about these seven individuals and their incredibly unique existence.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline TimM

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #661 on: March 18, 2015, 05:26:47 PM »
In a way they were prisoners, long before Lenin showed up.  Prisoners of their imperial status.
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Offline Ally Kumari

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #662 on: March 19, 2015, 03:30:21 AM »
I would say they were sheltered, but hardly "prisoners". At least after reading Helen Azar´s books, one can see the girls actually had plenty of contact with other people. In fact, I don´t think other Princesses of the time had much more interaction either. Had the war not happened, the girls would have made their social debuts, would have time for suitors, maybe even travelling.

Offline TimM

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #663 on: March 20, 2015, 10:11:49 AM »
Still, they didn't have normal lives.  They couldn't go out and make friends on their own when they were little.
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Offline Judicial Investigator

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #664 on: March 20, 2015, 01:33:22 PM »
Рейд “Штандарт”, 1910 год
ГА РФ, ф. 651 оп. 1 д. 260 л. 2 об. фото 27

"Часто бывает, что истина, когда ее пытаются скрыть, обнаруживается в маленьких штрихах, в деталях." - Н. А. Соколов

Offline Превед

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #665 on: March 20, 2015, 03:31:53 PM »
Has any child lived a more bizarre existence than the last Tsarevich of Russia?

Don't you think that all serial killers and mass murderers must have had a more bizarre childhood than Alexey? Yes, it must have been bizarre to have the world revolve around you while you yourself remain its weakest and most fragile member, but this is a general experience for all young children in happy families. The challenge with regard to Alexey was that this infantile stage continued into his adolescence. But he was surrounded with love and affection and that usually solves most problems.

I would say they were sheltered, but hardly "prisoners". At least after reading Helen Azar´s books, one can see the girls actually had plenty of contact with other people. In fact, I don´t think other Princesses of the time had much more interaction either. Had the war not happened, the girls would have made their social debuts, would have time for suitors, maybe even travelling.

Agreed. When you first start to take an interest in OTMAA you see them as unique royal saints, cloistered inmates of the golden prison of history, but when you have seen endless photos of them you may end up viewing them more as socialites, aristocrats, rather typical for their class.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 03:34:41 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline edubs31

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #666 on: March 20, 2015, 10:17:45 PM »
Preved) I'm saying Alexei's existence was "Bizarre" not necessarily "Bad". Serial killers don't have the extreme elements in their life like Alexei had. On one hand a celebrated icon showered with adulation and affection. On the other the victim of often excruciating physical pain and last in a centuries old line of Russian royalty caught in the eye of a revolutionary storm. Serial killers, at best, grow up in anonymous middle class homes, and at worse in hellish conditions. They don't get bowed to by ministers and military leaders one moment, then find themselves laid up in bed suffering from some rare disease the next. When your inner circle includes such as extremes as distinguished heads of state and Grigory Rasputin...and the time line of your life includes such as extremes as being born a Prince in a palace to then dying a prisoner in a dirty basement, in less than fourteen years time, that's how you know you've lived one of the most uniquely peculiar existences in the history of the world.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Превед

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #667 on: March 21, 2015, 07:22:42 AM »
Preved) I'm saying Alexei's existence was "Bizarre" not necessarily "Bad". Serial killers don't have the extreme elements in their life like Alexei had. On one hand a celebrated icon showered with adulation and affection. On the other the victim of often excruciating physical pain and last in a centuries old line of Russian royalty caught in the eye of a revolutionary storm. Serial killers, at best, grow up in anonymous middle class homes, and at worse in hellish conditions. They don't get bowed to by ministers and military leaders one moment, then find themselves laid up in bed suffering from some rare disease the next. When your inner circle includes such as extremes as distinguished heads of state and Grigory Rasputin...and the time line of your life includes such as extremes as being born a Prince in a palace to then dying a prisoner in a dirty basement, in less than fourteen years time, that's how you know you've lived one of the most uniquely peculiar existences in the history of the world.

I agree Alexey's life appeared bizarre from the outside, but probably not to himself. To a child it doesn't matter whether visitors are heads of state or some lowly office workers, they are still "your parents' friends" come visiting and you judge them on how kind and fun they are, not their position in society. His avuncular relationship with all those generals and ministers shows that very well. Not forgetting that many heads of state were family first and foremost, not kings and queens. To Alexey Rasputin was not "Rasputin, the mad monk from Siberia, the horror story that started the Revolution", but "our friend".

Maybe a serial killer grows up thinking his world is the natural state of things, but evidently something is lacking (love), considering what they do later. I am no specialist, but I'm pretty sure many people with different development conditions predisposing them to be serial killers realize that they are different than other people. Often, ironically, as having "megalomania", i.e. they think themselves vastly superior to others (yet feeling intolerably inferior) and thus with permission to harm people they don't like. I.e. conditions which would be very similar to Alexey's actual existence, minus the love that probably cured him of such ideas.
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline edubs31

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #668 on: March 21, 2015, 08:49:57 AM »
Obviously serial killers tend to suffer from varying mental disorders that encourage them to act a certain way. Just as you say about Alexei not thinking there was much out of the ordinary about his own life however, so too does a madman often believe their actions and their lack of respect for human life to be perfectly normal. Does ISIS consider their own actions absurd? Of course not. They consider the majority of the rest of the world wrong and necessary to purge.

I do agree with you that judging ones existence by how they themselves view the world makes Alexei's life seem far less strange and unique. But judging it as it truly was (an outsiders view) makes it one of the more bizarre existences in modern world history.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #669 on: March 21, 2015, 09:29:31 AM »
Often, ironically, as having "megalomania", i.e. they think themselves vastly superior to others (yet feeling intolerably inferior) and thus with permission to harm people they don't like. I.e. conditions which would be very similar to Alexey's actual existence, minus the love that probably cured him of such ideas.

I realize I'm being pedantic, but I'd hesitate to say "cured," which implies that Aleksei had these inclinations.
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Offline Превед

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #670 on: March 21, 2015, 01:20:32 PM »
I realize I'm being pedantic, but I'd hesitate to say "cured," which implies that Aleksei had these inclinations.

OK, "prevent" then.

Just as you say about Alexei not thinking there was much out of the ordinary about his own life however, so too does a madman often believe their actions and their lack of respect for human life to be perfectly normal.

Yes, normal for them, who consider themselves "special", I'd argue. Unless they are very psychopathic or autistic, they often see themselves as some kind of "avenger" with the power to take the life of their "inferiors".

Quote
Does ISIS consider their own actions absurd? Of course not. They consider the majority of the rest of the world wrong and necessary to purge.

It's hard to judge ISIS members, when not lone terrorists, in this context, because they kill as part of a group, similar to a regular army and thus group psychology plays in. They can care a lot about members of their own group and still hate and kill the enemy.
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Sanochka

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #671 on: March 22, 2015, 03:30:44 AM »
Рейд “Штандарт”, 1910 год
ГА РФ, ф. 651 оп. 1 д. 260 л. 2 об. фото 27



It looks like Tatiana is trying to wrest the camera from the hands of the woman at left.  BTW, who are the women in this photo?

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #672 on: March 22, 2015, 10:29:47 AM »
They're Byutsova and Schneider.
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Offline Rodney_G.

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #673 on: March 22, 2015, 11:09:08 PM »
Really excellent photo quality here, especially with a sort of close-up of Byutsova's face. By this standard I think we could identify 99% of the photo subjects we wonder about.
Rodney G.

Offline Bryndis

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Re: Tatiana Photographs III
« Reply #674 on: March 23, 2015, 08:35:01 AM »
Thank you for increasing my 1910-dress collection ; )
OTMA skating on the Standart was one of the first Romanov footage I ever saw.
I know this doesn't all belong here but I just wanted to post this :Ţ