Author Topic: Where Some Envision Czar’s End, Church Sees Building Site  (Read 12080 times)

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Where Some Envision Czar’s End, Church Sees Building Site
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2010, 01:27:03 PM »
Oh, now I see! You have a claim to him about Ipatiev house (that was Andropov decision and Yeltsin had no other choice). OK. Dear Margarita, I think that Russia itself is not only Ipatiev house;) There are a lot of beautiful buildings around. But I suddenly forgot that we are on the Romanovs forum and that people here know only that Yeltsin destroyed Ipatiev house. They don't know anything else about him, for example that he risked his life in August of 1991 and October 1993, tried to save Russia from it's terrible past, forced liberal economic reforms and so on. And for all these actions he was totally responsible by himself. Of course he had a great number of mistakes, like Chechen war, but this is understandable, because he lived and studied not in Harvard and with book by Lincoln, he grew up in the USSR. As I know USSR during its history had no such disciplines, like free market, classical liberalism and democracy;). Btw, he also was totally responsible for all his mistakes.

And about Ipatiev house....I think that the year of 1998 and Romanov's funeral is the dignified and honorable apology from Yeltsin. I think that even for the "hard true Romanovs fans" that would be enough.

Point taken about Mr. Yeltsin. The point is not so much about him, as about the Church's planned wanton destruction of a crime scene.

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Where Some Envision Czar’s End, Church Sees Building Site
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2010, 01:46:16 PM »
Oh, now I see! You have a claim to him about Ipatiev house (that was Andropov decision and Yeltsin had no other choice). OK. Dear Margarita, I think that Russia itself is not only Ipatiev house;) There are a lot of beautiful buildings around. But I suddenly forgot that we are on the Romanovs forum and that people here know only that Yeltsin destroyed Ipatiev house. They don't know anything else about him, for example that he risked his life in August of 1991 and October 1993, tried to save Russia from it's terrible past, forced liberal economic reforms and so on. And for all these actions he was totally responsible by himself. Of course he had a great number of mistakes, like Chechen war, but this is understandable, because he lived and studied not in Harvard and with book by Lincoln, he grew up in the USSR. As I know USSR during its history had no such disciplines, like free market, classical liberalism and democracy;). Btw, he also was totally responsible for all his mistakes.

And about Ipatiev house....I think that the year of 1998 and Romanov's funeral is the dignified and honorable apology from Yeltsin. I think that even for the "hard true Romanovs fans" that would be enough.

Point taken about Mr. Yeltsin. The point is not so much about him, as about the Church's planned wanton destruction of a crime scene.

Yes, I also think that those mine words were about Yeltsin, not about WWII for example;).

I was just interested about what's this "Yeltsin style" in Margarita's opinion. She said that it was Ipatiev house destruction, I added some mine thoughts about his other forgotten actions. No more. My apologies to all true Romanov fans and sorry for off-topic.
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Where Some Envision Czar’s End, Church Sees Building Site
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2010, 06:16:21 PM »
Nicola, you sound just like me when I'm railing against one injustice or another. It's very easy for people to forget the circumstances under which Yeltsin ordered the destruction of the Ipatiev House. It's not like he woke up one morning and decided to do it. He was ordered by his masters in Moscow to destroy it and he not complied his assignment, at the very best his career as a party operative would have been over and the next guy would have been ordered to do it.

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Where Some Envision Czar’s End, Church Sees Building Site
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2010, 07:32:40 PM »
Esteemed Lisa Davidson, I thought that we ended with Yeltsin;). Btw, I remember all that you've mentioned, so don't blame me in this case.

I totally agree with your words. Of course he was totally aware of it's decisions, but at the same time as I've said before, totally responsible. And as I've also mentioned before he was (at least in seventies) a typical Soviet functionary and only during Perestroika he had radically changed his views. And so on...we can talk about it till tomorrow.

But I think that personally for me, his appearance in 1991, liberal reforms in country where people throughout it's History didn't knew the word Freedom (only Tsar, power and equality), his failed attempt to reform Russia, anti-communism, his revival of churches, Russian big soul and finally his fundamental change in views from 1975 to 1991, all these things are incomparably more important than destruction of Ipatiev house. I can forgive people, if I see the kind soul in them and honest changes in their views. And I can forgive if the man gives me freedom or at least the chance of it.

That's what I wanted to say, because if you are talking (or mention) such a big and difficult figure, like Yeltsin you cannot say just disdaining: "Oh, it's all Yeltsin style". I don't like this kind of low-level conversation with these endless primitive generalizations.

Sorry again for off-topic.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 07:35:37 PM by Nicolá De Valerón »
"I think that if Shakespeare lived in our times he would not be able to write. Many of his works are not welcome on stage nowadays: The Merchant of Venice – anti-Semitism, Othello – racism, The Taming of the Shrew – sexism, Romeo and Juliet - hideous heterosexual show..." - Vladimir Bukovsky.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Where Some Envision Czar’s End, Church Sees Building Site
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2010, 07:48:48 PM »
Questions, in no particular order.

Is the New York times report accurate?

Will the ROC definately build the church without finishing the excavations and scientific survey?

Who owns the land and who needs to give permission?
Why does the RFA and the ROC (outside) of Russia recognise the bones and not the Roc (inside) and Grand Duchess Maria?
What political influence and meddling is invold from V.Putin and the Kremlin.
What amount of scientific work still needs to be done at the Pigs Meadow before the Cathedral needs to be built?
Why does the ROC want to build on that particular meadow and not on one of the many thousands in the area?
etc etc etc
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Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Where Some Envision Czar’s End, Church Sees Building Site
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2010, 11:09:18 AM »
Esteemed Lisa Davidson, I thought that we ended with Yeltsin;). Btw, I remember all that you've mentioned, so don't blame me in this case.

I totally agree with your words. Of course he was totally aware of it's decisions, but at the same time as I've said before, totally responsible. And as I've also mentioned before he was (at least in seventies) a typical Soviet functionary and only during Perestroika he had radically changed his views. And so on...we can talk about it till tomorrow.

But I think that personally for me, his appearance in 1991, liberal reforms in country where people throughout it's History didn't knew the word Freedom (only Tsar, power and equality), his failed attempt to reform Russia, anti-communism, his revival of churches, Russian big soul and finally his fundamental change in views from 1975 to 1991, all these things are incomparably more important than destruction of Ipatiev house. I can forgive people, if I see the kind soul in them and honest changes in their views. And I can forgive if the man gives me freedom or at least the chance of it.

That's what I wanted to say, because if you are talking (or mention) such a big and difficult figure, like Yeltsin you cannot say just disdaining: "Oh, it's all Yeltsin style". I don't like this kind of low-level conversation with these endless primitive generalizations.

Sorry again for off-topic.

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you, and yes, I agree we are done with BY, at least on this thread!

Offline JonC

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Re: Where Some Envision Czar’s End, Church Sees Building Site
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2010, 11:12:16 PM »
And yet, Lisa, has there ever been given, by anyone, even by those ' bi wigs ' above BY that you mentioned, a reason as to why the Ipatiev House had to be razed to the ground effectively burying all and any forensic material with it? It has always amazed me how no-one can admit to a cover-up by those so-called Russian govt., ' big wigs '. JonC.