Author Topic: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg  (Read 35097 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Marc

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4333
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2010, 07:40:18 PM »
Great to see more posts about this family and it's fractions...Does anyone know about relations between Glücksburg line after they became Heirs and after Kings of Denmark and Augustenburg line?As I see the first line was pro-Dansih and the other one pro-German...were they on good terms before or not and what kind of communication they had after one line became Royal and the other "exiled"...?

P.S.Love these paintings and portraits!Thnx ;-)

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2010, 08:06:10 PM »
Does anyone know about relations between Glücksburg line after they became Heirs and after Kings of Denmark and Augustenburg line?

Only indirectly: Christian IX and the whole Hesse-Glücksburg clan were preferred by King Frederik VI. He did send Prince Christian August of Augustenborg up to Norway as Commanding General during the crisis of the Napoleonic wars, but the 'Gustenborger proved himself so popular that the enemy, the Swedes, elected him as their Crown Prince. Had he not died prematurely, Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte would never have become Carl XIV Johan! Frederik VI did of course sanction this important decision, but he didn't trust completely in this brother-in-law of his sister. His wife's brother Prince Friedrich of Hesse was sent up to Norway as Stadtholder to keep an eye on Christian August.

Frederik VI wasn't very close to his half-nephew Christian Frederik, the revolutionary Norwegian May King of 1814 and later Christian VIII either. I think Christian VIII was closer to the Augustenborgers: His second wife was one, they shared Danish (i.e. not German) cultural-intellectual interests, and I think he regarded them as presumptive heirs. I don't think his son Frederik VII was close to either branch, probably because they disrespected Countess Danner, and he only grudgingly accepted Christian IX as his designated successor. On the other hand the Augustenborgers had acted as traitors in 1848, so he couldn't really trust them either.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 08:35:51 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Marc

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4333
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2010, 08:15:49 PM »
It is very interesting to know what kind of relations they all had as they were all so intermarried and connected in other ways...and on the other hand it seems their politics was based on the amount of favor they enjoyed from more powerful countries!

Offline kmerov

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1485
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2010, 07:19:15 PM »

Even in exile their castle/palace of Primkenau looked quite lavish if we take a note that they were the exiled family of a relatively small Dukedom...

Yes, the continued to be well of I think, even after their exile. When Schleswig-Holstein became a part of Prussia, they got back their former Palaces and Castles, Augustenburg, Sonderburg, and Graasten (Gravenstein), but only the latter was actually used by the Ducal family.

Offline kmerov

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1485
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2010, 07:41:16 PM »
Great to see more posts about this family and it's fractions...Does anyone know about relations between Glücksburg line after they became Heirs and after Kings of Denmark and Augustenburg line?As I see the first line was pro-Dansih and the other one pro-German...were they on good terms before or not and what kind of communication they had after one line became Royal and the other "exiled"...?


The relationship between the two branches was very good, with the exception of the new Danish RF. Christian (IX) was the only Glücksburg to support the Danish cause in 1848, leaving some of his brothers to fight with the Augustenburgs against Denmark in the war.
Duke Friedrich "Fritz Holstein" of Augustenburgs daughter, Karoline Mathilde marrid Duke Friedrich Ferdinand of Glücksburg in 1885 so the good relationship lasted thru the years. Christian IX and his family were of course never big fans of the Augustenburg family.

So there is a clear difference between the Ducal Glücksburgs and the Danish RF regarding the Augustenburgs.
Prior to the war in 1848 everybody more or less got along fine, visiting each other in the Duchies and seing each other in Copenhagen.

Offline Marc

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4333
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2010, 08:48:56 PM »
Thank you for this...I always wanted to know if the elevation of one line to royal status ever occurred as a reason for some kind of "bad relations" between fractions of this same family...it's so strange to hear that brothers and sisters had to submit to politics,but unfortunately,not unlikely...base for my question were Princess Alexandra of Glücksburg line and Prince Christian of Augustenburg line who married two siblings of the same family...did they have any personal relations at all or did they avoid each other while on British Court because of their family politics?


One more question...when Alexandra arrived and upon marrying future Edward VII her father was still not the King,Tennyson wrote a poem:

"Sea King's daughter from over the sea,
Alexandra!
Saxon and Norman and Dane are we,
But all of us Danes in our welcome of thee,
Alexandra!"

Technically,it would be a great offense to the present King of Denmark(at that time) proclaiming his Heir already a King by writing "Sea King's daughter"...Her father Christian was still at the time of her wedding just an heir to the throne and as such still a member of Glücksburg Ducal line(despite being Prince of Denmark at the same time) while King Frederick VII from the main Oldenburg line was still alive...

or maybe the poem was written later when her father became King of Denmark?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 08:55:15 PM by Marc »

Offline kmerov

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1485
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2010, 09:31:26 AM »
Thank you for this...I always wanted to know if the elevation of one line to royal status ever occurred as a reason for some kind of "bad relations" between fractions of this same family...it's so strange to hear that brothers and sisters had to submit to politics,but unfortunately,not unlikely...base for my question were Princess Alexandra of Glücksburg line and Prince Christian of Augustenburg line who married two siblings of the same family...did they have any personal relations at all or did they avoid each other while on British Court because of their family politics?


One more question...when Alexandra arrived and upon marrying future Edward VII her father was still not the King,Tennyson wrote a poem:

"Sea King's daughter from over the sea,
Alexandra!
Saxon and Norman and Dane are we,
But all of us Danes in our welcome of thee,
Alexandra!"

Technically,it would be a great offense to the present King of Denmark(at that time) proclaiming his Heir already a King by writing "Sea King's daughter"...Her father Christian was still at the time of her wedding just an heir to the throne and as such still a member of Glücksburg Ducal line(despite being Prince of Denmark at the same time) while King Frederick VII from the main Oldenburg line was still alive...

or maybe the poem was written later when her father became King of Denmark?

You are welcome. Alexandra and Christian of Augustenburg becoming in-laws made Alexandra very unhappy, so no they never had any deeper personel relationship, but of course the saw each other from time to time. Alexandra and her family seems to have resented him more than he did them. Christian IX and other Danish relatives would see Christian Augustenburg when visiting England.

As regard to your second question, I think that the fact that it was a poem made it ok to write Sea King's daughter, eventhough Frederik VII was still king, and Christian at that time was second in line to the throne.

Offline Marc

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4333
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2010, 05:46:29 PM »
Ok,my main interest was that it didn't cause any problem...sometimes rulers can have a lot of pride and are not willing to tolerate such things...obviously Frederik VII was not "moved" by that song...

Do you know,where there any meetings between Danish RF(former Glücksburgs) with Augustenburgs or Ducal Glücksburg after their exile and their support to Germany...so much connected that they can't avoid each other and so much difference in political views and jet depending on it...

Offline kmerov

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1485
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2010, 07:34:08 PM »
Ok,my main interest was that it didn't cause any problem...sometimes rulers can have a lot of pride and are not willing to tolerate such things...obviously Frederik VII was not "moved" by that song...

Do you know,where there any meetings between Danish RF(former Glücksburgs) with Augustenburgs or Ducal Glücksburg after their exile and their support to Germany...so much connected that they can't avoid each other and so much difference in political views and jet depending on it...

Yes, there were meetings. Christian IX oldest brother, Duke Carl of Glücksburg was married to Princess Wilhelmine of Denmark, daughter of King Frederik VI, so after some years he was forgiven and became a regular visitor to Copenhagen, but he never was a popular person. Christian IX's other brothers also came for visits. As you probably know, Prince Harald, son of King Frederik VIII married ill-famed Princess Helena of Glücksburg so the ties continued.
The Augustenburgs did not come to Denmark anymore, but the Danish RF met them on different occasions. When Christian IX came to England in 1867 he bumped into Prince Christian of Augustenburg, who tried to start a conversation by speaking to the king about the same sorrow the had shared with the deaths of both their mothers that year. The king agreed, and that was the end of that conversátion.

Offline Marc

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4333
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2010, 05:33:57 AM »
That is rather unfortunate...am I wrong when I think that every line thought of themselves as a different family,not a unique one?I also think that that is the reason they distanced themselves among each other...

Meanwhile,I found a tombstone portrait of Duchess Karoline von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Weisenburg...I think that she was the last of her line-Piast family and married to Duke Friedrich von S-H-S-Weisenburg...she was raised as Calvinist,but became Catholic upon her marriage...They married secretly(wonder why?) but the marriage proved unsuccessful...they had one son Leopold who succeeded his father as Duke when he died in 1724.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Karolina_Piast%C3%B3wna.JPG/450px-Karolina_Piast%C3%B3wna.JPG

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2010, 12:56:48 PM »
One more question...when Alexandra arrived and upon marrying future Edward VII her father was still not the King,Tennyson wrote a poem:

"Sea King's daughter from over the sea,
Alexandra!
Saxon and Norman and Dane are we,
But all of us Danes in our welcome of thee,
Alexandra!"

Technically,it would be a great offense to the present King of Denmark(at that time) proclaiming his Heir already a King by writing "Sea King's daughter"...Her father Christian was still at the time of her wedding just an heir to the throne and as such still a member of Glücksburg Ducal line(despite being Prince of Denmark at the same time) while King Frederick VII from the main Oldenburg line was still alive...

If it was taken literally one could also object to the fact that in Old Norse/Danish/Viking parlance, a "sea king" (sækonungr) was not a territorial ruler, but more like a pirate leader!
In modern Danish it's a more peaceful creature though: søkonge :-)

Though of course it can also be an allusion to the legendary Danish royal line of the Skjoldungs / Scyldings, known from Beowulf. Their legendary ancestor, King Skjold or Scyld, allegedly came to Denmark, England or Scania from the sea, in a boat or on a sheaf of grain, in some versions as a baby and/or son of of the god Odin. Obvious parallells to Moses in the basket and the Merovingians' legendary ancestor Merovech (who in light of the Holy Blood, Holy Grail legend can be interpreted as Mary Magdalen's offspring with Christ.... :-)

More to the point had it perhaps been if Tennyson had added "Angles" to the list of "Saxon, Norman and Dane" and focused on Alexandra as a Glücksborger, Glücksborg being situated in the region of Angeln, legendary ancestral home of the Angles who gave their name to Ænglaland / Anglia / England :-)

The erratic and archeologically interested, but also pragamatic Frederik VII may have thought: Better not go down that path.... :-)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 01:04:31 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline kmerov

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1485
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2010, 05:34:12 PM »
That is rather unfortunate...am I wrong when I think that every line thought of themselves as a different family,not a unique one?I also think that that is the reason they distanced themselves among each other...


Well, each branch had its own history since their creation, thus they grew apart. The different lines that lived in the Duchies visited eachother and were on friendly terms, but argued over inheritance issues and such.  
The two longest living branches (Augustenburg and Glücksburg Younger line)also had different backgrounds.The Augustenburg line lived in the Danish Monarchy always, whereas the Glücksburgs (then known as the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck line) had made a carriere outside of Denmark, only returning in the beginning of the 19th century. But they supported each other in the war of 1848, because of common values and perceptions.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 05:36:25 PM by kmerov »

Offline kmerov

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1485
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2010, 05:41:17 PM »
Meanwhile,I found a tombstone portrait of Duchess Karoline von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Weisenburg...I think that she was the last of her line-Piast family and married to Duke Friedrich von S-H-S-Weisenburg...she was raised as Calvinist,but became Catholic upon her marriage...They married secretly(wonder why?) but the marriage proved unsuccessful...they had one son Leopold who succeeded his father as Duke when he died in 1724.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Karolina_Piast%C3%B3wna.JPG/450px-Karolina_Piast%C3%B3wna.JPG

Are you talking about Charlotte of Liegnitz? She married Duke Friedrich of Wiesenburg against her mothers wishes.

Offline Marc

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4333
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2010, 07:31:47 PM »
Yes,in German sites she is referred as Charlotte and in Polish ones she is Caroline...strange :-/

Do you know what was the cause her mother didn't wish such a marriage...maybe religion?Her husband Duke Friedrich was quite close to the Emperor himself...that would be a "good qualification"...maybe she had some bigger plans for her daughter?

I read that after her family died out in male line her allowance was reduced by the Emperor...obviously they were not in such good terms despite his good relationship with her former husband with whom she had a son Leopold...

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2010, 07:40:37 PM »
Quote from: Myself, on another thread
After the dynasty died out, the King of Denmark and the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp took over Oldenburg by heritage in 1667. In 1676 the King of Denmark was the only ruler on Oldenburg (I don´t know why S-H-G lost their rights)
Pure "might is right". That Duke Christian Albrecht of S-H-Gottorp did not receive his due share of Oldenburg-Delmenhorst from his father-in-law (and Head of the House of Oldenburg) King Frederik III was a major reason for the Gottorps becoming hostile to Denmark and forming alliances with Sweden. A technical reason was that the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön for some reason also was entitled to some part of the inheritance. Being an ally of Frederik III, the Duke of Plön ceded his rights to Denmark, who thus controlled "the majority" of lots.

I read in Dansk Biografisk Lexikon's article on Baron Andreas Paulsen/Pauli von Liliencron (bourgeois-born ancestor of a widespread S-H family), who was King Frederik III's  envoy in Vienna charged with settling the Oldenburg inheritance, realized that the Duke of S-H(-Sonderburg)-Plön was going to win the case in the Imperial Court Council and therefore advised Frederik III and Christian V to strike a deal with him, which the Emperor, favouring an alliance with Denmark, approved of.