Author Topic: Klementiy Nagorniy  (Read 70694 times)

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Offline edubs31

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #135 on: December 09, 2012, 09:24:41 AM »
I would imagine that Nagorny and the other members of the household who were shot separately from the Imperial Family were buried in unmarked graves. But it would be nice to know that Nagorny and Ivan Sednev had proper burials, if that story is true.

If there any possibility that the AP Forum could get together and organise a memorial plaque for them all at the Alexander Palace?

Ann

I would certainly go along with that! This is exactly the type of thing I would like to see in conjunction with the "Friends of TS/AP" newsletter/catalog that I believe is still in the works, yes?
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Offline Rodney_G.

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #136 on: December 10, 2012, 05:06:41 PM »
I haven't completely lost my memory and there is already a thread for a monument to Nagorny. It's "A Monument To Klementy Nagorny", on page three of the "Servants, Friends, Retainers" board. It's worth reading. Coincidentally, the last post to it was exactly two years ago today, also coincidentally by me. I suggest not combining them, as it might confuse the conversation.

Good idea, Kalafrana and edubs.  Let's do it ! Money well given for the fine, fine Klim Nagorny.
Rodney G.

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #137 on: December 10, 2012, 08:21:39 PM »
I haven't completely lost my memory and there is already a thread for a monument to Nagorny. It's "A Monument To Klementy Nagorny", on page three of the "Servants, Friends, Retainers" board. It's worth reading. Coincidentally, the last post to it was exactly two years ago today, also coincidentally by me. I suggest not combining them, as it might confuse the conversation.

Good idea, Kalafrana and edubs.  Let's do it ! Money well given for the fine, fine Klim Nagorny.

    Thank you for bringing the earlier "monument" thread to attention again.  In reading your last post in that thread, yes,  an opportunity probably WAS missed to formally commemorate/honor in a tangible way, the faithful retainers executed (outside of those in the Ipatiev house) at the burial of Nicholas II et al.
    Following the same line of reasoning, another "natural" opportunity would be at the burial of the Heir and the other grandduchess, thought to be possibly in 2013 (Please see Paul Gilbert's "Royal Russia Bulletin" Nov.25th posting of his Nov. 22 news article in which he quotes ITAR-TASS: " The remains of the Tsesarevich Alexei Nicholayevich and the Grand Duchess Maria Nicholayevna may be buried in the summer of 2013, ITAR-TASS reports. The announcement was made on November 16th by Sergei Mironenko, Director of the State Archives of the Russian Federation (GARF) in Moscow, where the remains are currently in temporary storage.").  Please note the word "may."  Does it indicate "to give permission" or "possibly" ?  IMO, I take it to mean "possibly."
    I personally think that though the second Imperial burial/s would "complete the cycle," the burials will be quite a low-key event, whenever they occur. However, IMO, outside of the comparatively small number of Romanov enthusiasts, the names of K.G. Nargony and I. D. Sednev would not easily recognized by even most Russians in their proper/formal context.  In the larger scope of things, they simply are not "hot property."
    Certainly, a plaque at a properly-designated spot honoring ALL the faithful retainers as a group (diminishing a risk of missing someone who was "qualified," but not readily named/remembered) who paid the supreme cost for loyalty, would be in order.

                                                                                    Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 08:38:41 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #138 on: December 10, 2012, 09:04:26 PM »
 Re my above post:   ".......the names of K.G. Nargony and I. D. Sednev......."     



   The correct spelling is of course, Nagorny.    Apologies.  Regards,  AP.                                                                                

Offline TennPat

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #139 on: December 11, 2012, 10:24:18 PM »
I would be interested in contributing to such a marker.   Pat

Offline bkohatl

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy, mis-identification?
« Reply #140 on: February 17, 2013, 09:44:42 PM »
I've noticed that a photo of Nagorny holding Alexei while in the Gulf of Finland in 1912, but I have problem. In every other photo, Nagorny is well over six feet tall and towers over everyone else. One photo is deceptive, Alexei, Deverenko and Nagorny, if you look carefully you will notice that Nagorny is standing on a board. That aside the Finland photo can't be Nagorny, by contrasting Alexei in his arms and the sailors height, that sailor must be under six feet.
One thing has always bothered me, people confusing Nagorny and Deverenko. Anya Vyrubova aside, Deverenko did the smart thing and Nagorny the right thing. Nagorny had a wife and children. No one would have blamed him had he left after the revolution to be with them. But when the Czar and his family needed him most, he chose to do the honorable course.
If Anya was correct, then Deverenko was the ultimate fair weather friend. Understandable under the circumstance, but not in any way honorable or right.

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #141 on: February 18, 2013, 11:16:21 AM »
Well everyone must choose for themselves...and it seems in such a extreme circumstances  it's not a choice in some ways...each did what they felt they had to do . I'm  not letting Deverenko off the hook there! If Anna was speaking truthfully , Deverenko didn't just run off, but humiliated Alexei along the way..... that ordering Alexei about  seems alot for someone to make up so I tend to believe it  ...but who knows .

Are you speaking of the photo where the sailor who is holding Alexei above the water
has water proof hip boots on?  That is Nagorny imo The difference in body type between the two men is marked

I've always wondered why there are so many photos of Deverenko with Alexei, but much fewer with Nagorny?

P. Gillard paints an unforgettable picture of Nagorny leaving Impative House  that does much to
illustrate the man's dignified and awesome heroism  though out this time. Dignity at such a time is a rare commodity ,
it's so costly .

"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #142 on: February 27, 2013, 07:38:21 PM »
From the book "The Last Tsar" by E Radzinsky has some information on Nagorny's fate. It has Peter Ermakov telling a group of (Red) Pioneers he shot "A Tsarist lackey the former heirs companion". It also mentions that Nagorny argued with Rodionov on the Russ and he argued with another guard while going into the Ipatev house who may have been Ermakov. Since both of these people were rather nasty to put it mildly they both had good reasons to kill him.
 I find certain things about the box of bombs odd. I don't think Nagorny or Sednev would have got hold of them without permission from Nicholas. These two traveled to Ekaterinberg with the OTAA group. All the bags were searched before they were let in the house and they missed a box with 9 bombs/grenades in it !? If they did manage to get them inside they would have told Nicholas and others about them fairly quickly. No doubt they would have been hid away for use in a escape or rescue attempt. Also note counting these two there are 14 people in 5 rooms trying to keep them a secreat would have been almost impossible.
 As for Kharitonov handing over the box of 9 bombs to the guards and telling them he found them where Nagorny and sednev sleep. I find this almost unbelieveable.
Why would he do this and expose them to reprisals?
Why didn't any off the others see this or notice the bombs missing?
Why didn't the Urals Soviet order a search of the IFs rooms after this? Note the men of the Urals Soviet were a bunch of hard core revolutionaries who had hundreds of people shot for little or no reason during this time period.
It could be this incident was made up as an excuse to get rid of nagorny and Sednev.
 Finally, any members of the IF entorage that are still with them on the move to Ekaterinberg must have been a real loyal, deadicated, brave bunch of people not a bunch of snitches and stab your friend in the back types.

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #143 on: February 27, 2013, 08:20:41 PM »
For what it's worth, here's the account of the bomb incident from the Ipatiev guard duty book, as printed in Last Act of a Tragedy:
June 1
Personal request from citizen Botkin to find his suitcase that was sent from Tobolsk.
About 13 p. m. I received a statement from cook Kharitonov that there was something on top of the wardrobe in the room where Citizens Sednev and Nagorny had stayed previously. When I got there, it turned out that eight armed bombs were on top of the wardrobe Kharitonov had mentioned. Five of them were numbered 35, 73, 92 and were bottle-shaped. Another two had no numbers. Two bombs were round. One bomb, No. 11, was egg-shaped. The bombs were disarmed in the guard room. From further interrogation of citizens Kharitonov and Trupp the following was discovered: Because a new brick stove was being built in the room, where Kharitonov and Trupp were staying, they had access to the neighbouring unoccupied room. Kharitonov, wishing to clean up the dust in the room, found the bombs on top of the wardrobe and reported them to the guard room. I informed Comrade Avdeyev, commandant of the House of Special Purpose about it and he, in turn, informed Comrade Beloborodov, chairman of the regional soviet.



Incidentally, here's an intriguing tidbit from the entry for May 15, the same day NAM arrived from Tobolsk:
There were no incidents during my duty. But after changing the guard, 12 knives hidden in the yard were found.

Makes it sound like there were weapons scattered all over the property!
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Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #144 on: February 28, 2013, 05:51:54 PM »
If I was a member of the Urals Soviet and incidents like this happened with weapons being found ect. my hair would be standing on end. This is because if the IF escaped Lenin would most likely have me shot. It looks like Kharitonov may not have realized what he had found or what the consequences would be.

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #145 on: March 03, 2013, 09:36:45 AM »
Indeed, considering how thoroughly they were searched upon arrival, how on earth did nine "bombs" get though?
and then simply left behind for Kharitonov and Trupp to stumble upon? It seems impossible  Tsar or Botkin
did not know about them. It seems it was decided Kharitonov and Trupp would report them found  in the room of the newly departed
Nagorny before they were found in a search.

Nagorny joined the  family  the day after the children arrived at the house  I believe , having with him Alexi's dog , Joy....but he had to be thoroughly searched upon arrival. Just that he made it to spend some time at Ipatiev House is impressive, others  did not
 
 It would be intriguing to know what is meant by " bomb". A molotov cocktail? a professionally produced one?
Where the bombs made in the house ( as with a A molotov cocktail? Lord knows they had bottles) and in that way not found upon arrival ?

In any case, this is indeed an earthquake treated quite lightly  .

Interesting about the knives at Tobolsk ! Sounds like a usual respose to being imprisoned.
The impulse behind Olga's gun finding other expressions

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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #146 on: March 03, 2013, 09:42:07 AM »

Interesting about the knives at Tobolsk ! Sounds like a usual respose to being imprisoned.
The impulse behind Olga's gun finding other expressions

This was in the yard at Ekaterinburg -- the day NAM arrived from Tobolsk.
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Offline Rodney_G.

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #147 on: March 04, 2013, 05:52:25 PM »
For what it's worth, here's the account of the bomb incident from the Ipatiev guard duty book, as printed in Last Act of a Tragedy:
June 1
Personal request from citizen Botkin to find his suitcase that was sent from Tobolsk.
About 13 p. m. I received a statement from cook Kharitonov that there was something on top of the wardrobe in the room where Citizens Sednev and Nagorny had stayed previously. When I got there, it turned out that eight armed bombs were on top of the wardrobe Kharitonov had mentioned. Five of them were numbered 35, 73, 92 and were bottle-shaped. Another two had no numbers. Two bombs were round. One bomb, No. 11, was egg-shaped. The bombs were disarmed in the guard room. From further interrogation of citizens Kharitonov and Trupp the following was discovered: Because a new brick stove was being built in the room, where Kharitonov and Trupp were staying, they had access to the neighbouring unoccupied room. Kharitonov, wishing to clean up the dust in the room, found the bombs on top of the wardrobe and reported them to the guard room. I informed Comrade Avdeyev, commandant of the House of Special Purpose about it and he, in turn, informed Comrade Beloborodov, chairman of the regional soviet.



Incidentally, here's an intriguing tidbit from the entry for May 15, the same day NAM arrived from Tobolsk:
There were no incidents during my duty. But after changing the guard, 12 knives hidden in the yard were found.

Makes it sound like there were weapons scattered all over the property!

The situation cited in that guard log book entry strikes me as beyond bizzare. Let's rule out owner Ipatiev. So it could have been Bolsheviks in charge of the property for about a month at that point. But why hide a dozen knives in the yard ,or even a few? Were they buried or just casually hidden like Easter eggs for a hunt?

But there's also no way in hell the first Romanov prisoners brought to the house could have or would have done this. They were too well-guarded to have hidden much unobserved , not to mention that hidden knives would be worthless for an escape attempt, would be a serious danger to their lives if discovered and tied to the Romanov party,and the few men capable of using knives effectively, Nagornyand Sednev,basically, would not have risked everyone's lives with such rashness. 

 Thanks for noting that entry,Sarushka. I'm amazed it hasn't been leapt upon by commentators, nor by the Bolshevik biggies on the scene.
Why didn't all hell break loose right away? But I presume it didn't because there's no further mention of buried knives anywhere that I know of.

Bolshevik provocation is a very strong possibility,of course.They did the whole bogus French " loyal officer" letters  bit after all. Hidden weapons strikes me as a far greater rationale,but one unused. But in the absence of any comment by them or real repercussions to the Romanovs, we're left with this strange case of the dog that didn't bark.
Rodney G.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #148 on: March 07, 2013, 08:30:03 PM »
When they say bombs they mean hand grenades back then. the 5 bottle shaped bombs are like the german WW II stick grenades only with a shorter handle and a wider bottle shaped head. They are most likely standard Russian hand grenade of the period and their WW II ones were similiar. the 2 round and 1 egg grenades I don't know if they were Russian or Allied made grenades they were possibly about the size of a baseball or cricket ball. the egg grenade was oval in shape. Also note the bottle grenades were several inches long. So this was no really small box.

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2013, 10:18:05 PM »
I tend to think you are right they were grenades because a shape is spoken about...
Quote
Bolshevik provocation is a very strong possibility,of course.They did the whole bogus French " loyal officer" letters  bit after all. Hidden weapons strikes me as a far greater rationale,but one unused. But in the absence of any comment by them or real repercussions to the Romanovs, we're left with this strange case of the dog that didn't bark

Excellent point...both thier appearance the the yawn they caused
when turned in seem to point to provocation plan...spoiled by the prisoners turning them in asap.

"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna