Author Topic: The Missing Bodies  (Read 130286 times)

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #90 on: November 21, 2004, 02:49:30 PM »
The fates of the men allegedly at the second burial were as follows:

Yurovsky, died 1938, of natural causes.

Ermakov, died 1952, of natural causes.

F. Lukoyanov, died 1947, of natural causes.

Rodzinsky, arrested 1937 but released (very exceptional!) in 1940. Died shortly after May 1964 radio interview with Nikulin.

[Kudrin, who was not present but left a statement based on Rodzinsky, died in 1964, of natural causes.]

Ivan Pospelov was apparently still alive and living in Perm in 1928. Nikolai Samoilov went on to study at university in Moscow.  Mikhail Veselkov was working in the GPU  (successor to the Cheka) in 1928. Feodor Tiagunov died fighting in the civil war, as apparently did the Estonian Kil'zin. The Estonian Kiut, Dmitri Ponomarev and Gur'ev were taken prisoner by the Whites during the Civil War and presumably perished. Of the fates of Pavlushin, Gorin, Bozhenov, Nikolai Pospelov, Petrov, Riabkov, Yasha, Sunegin, and Vaganov I could find no information.

But on the whole the burial party of the last tsar seems to have fared quite well under Stalin.
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #91 on: November 21, 2004, 02:56:50 PM »
Well, as they say, only the good die young. The Bolsheviks who survived Stalin seemed to live forever (perhaps they suspected the fires of hell were waiting for them?). Molotov was still wandering around Moscow in his nineties - periodically survivors of the Terror would recognize him and beat him up. Kaganovich also lived an unbelievably long time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »
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Offline Alice

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #92 on: November 22, 2004, 03:34:53 AM »
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Well, according to Kudrin (repeating what Rodzinsky told him), the bodies wouldn't burn, and had to be buried. "The frozen corpses smoked, stank, and sizzled, but not one of them burned."

All the witness statements I have yet read declare that Yurovsky and his men attempted to burn two or more corpses. For a historian, that is generally enough evidence to draw a conclusion, even if the statements disagree on details (as even eyewitness statements usually do!).

Furthermore, Sukhorukov names twenty-two men, including himself, who were present for the reburial. This means a minimum of twenty or so men would have known about the attempted burnings - or about the two corpses going missing, if this is what you believe. I find the latter harder and harder to believe. Of twenty or more men - not a single one (even that blabbermouth, Ermakov, in his cups?) ever uttered a word about two victims disappearing?

Look at how swiftly rumors spread about the first burial alone. According to both Yurovsky and Kudrin, by the morning of July 17 or 18th, rumors about where the tsar and his family had been buried were already sweeping the Ekaterinburg area. As Kudrin stated: "...witnesses appeared at the Ural Regional Cheka [to say that] all of Verkh-Isetsk was talking only about the execution of Nicholas II and how the corpses were thrown into abandoned mines near Koptyaki [...] Probably one of the participants in the [first] burial told his wife in secret - she then told the matchmaker, and then it went out to all the district."  Okay, now try keeping it secret that two of the victims had actually gone missing! It would have been absolutely impossible.


Absolutely. I really can't see how they would keep this a secret. OK, so if two victims did go missing, then there would be some embarrassment for the men involved, and they certainly wouldn't want their superiors to know, but still, I can't imagine that everyone involved would stay quiet.

A far-fetched theory is that they killed two peasants, and burned their bodies beyond recognition, to make up for the two missing victims. So most of the men saw two charred, burnt bodies, and thought them to be two of the victims. But this is a stretch. And other peasants would've noted the two missing peasants. You can't just kill two people and burn them without other people that knew them noticing.  ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Alice »

Offline Annie

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #93 on: November 22, 2004, 07:46:50 AM »
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A far-fetched theory is that they killed two peasants, and burned their bodies beyond recognition, to make up for the two missing victims. So most of the men saw two charred, burnt bodies, and thought them to be two of the victims. But this is a stretch. And other peasants would've noted the two missing peasants. You can't just kill two people and burn them without other people that knew them noticing.  ::)


Well, in those days people were getting killed and disappearing so much it is possible nobody came looking for them especially if they feared for their own safety. However, this is a huge stretch, and I put it in the same category with these other wild theories and stories:

Elvis isn't really dead and the man in his coffin was a lookalike who had been terminally ill and Elvis paid him so his family would be financially secure to kill himself and be the body in the coffin

Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid really shot a drunk on the street in the face and buried him instead of Billy and he got away

The hunter brought the heart of a pig back to the wicked stepmother and Snow White got away :rolleyes: ;)

That's another thing I have noticed with this whole Anastasia thing, the 'fairy tale' quality, the princess who got away and hid in the forest, like Snow White, or Rapunzel. I also saw a cartoon fairy tale once on Nikelodeon when my kids were small about a princess whose entire family had been killed and she had to flee and hide in peasant clothes to keep from being hunted down and killed too. A prince from another kingdom married her, because he could tell she was really a princess. I don't know the name of this story, but all the ones on that show were based on old ones, mostly Grimm's. Oh, and the best one of all, it would be lovely to think of Anastasia, and all of OTMA, as Sleeping Beauty, surrounded by thorns and brush in the forest, to be awakened after 100 years  :'(

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #94 on: November 22, 2004, 10:25:34 AM »
The town of Ekaterinburg was filled with people, who were with and without proper papers.  It would have been no problem for the CHEKA to have taken two people out of the city, kill them and burned them in Pig's Meadow.  Two people vanishing in the time of Revolution was not unusual.   Yurovsky tells us he traveled back and forth from the town more than once.

Trouble with the burning the bodies - be they two strangers or Romanovs- the majority of the bones still would have been left, according to the experts.

With all the people digging around the meadow,  it seems if there was anything to be found,  the remains would have been found by, now.  But then,  it did take everyone involved a long time to find the mass grave even with directions left by Yurovsky.

If the two missing bodies are suddenly found, today,  I can just imagine all the questions which will be asked just by this group.

AGRBear

PS  Ekaterinburg Memorial web site might have Last Act of Tragedy, so,  anyone have that URL because I can't seem to find this site.  The one I found doesn't appear to have any books for sale. Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Alice

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2004, 05:16:28 AM »
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Elvis isn't really dead and the man in his coffin was a lookalike who had been terminally ill and Elvis paid him so his family would be financially secure to kill himself and be the body in the coffin.


So it was Elvis I saw at KFC then?!  :D

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #96 on: November 24, 2004, 11:19:56 AM »
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That's another thing I have noticed with this whole Anastasia thing, the 'fairy tale' quality, the princess who got away and hid in the forest, like Snow White, or Rapunzel. I also saw a cartoon fairy tale once on Nikelodeon when my kids were small about a princess whose entire family had been killed and she had to flee and hide in peasant clothes to keep from being hunted down and killed too. A prince from another kingdom married her, because he could tell she was really a princess. I don't know the name of this story, but all the ones on that show were based on old ones, mostly Grimm's. Oh, and the best one of all, it would be lovely to think of Anastasia, and all of OTMA, as Sleeping Beauty, surrounded by thorns and brush in the forest, to be awakened after 100 years  :'(


What great insights, Annie. I am also intrigued by the fairy tale quality of the Anastasia story, but never thought of the Sleeping Beauty-OTMA link before. What a lovely idea!
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Offline Annie

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2004, 02:21:31 PM »
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What great insights, Annie. I am also intrigued by the fairy tale quality of the Anastasia story, but never thought of the Sleeping Beauty-OTMA link before. What a lovely idea!


Thanks :)

I do wish they could wake up, and it was all a bad dream  :'(

Offline Grand_Duke_Alexei

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2004, 08:11:52 PM »
Aw, it would be nice if they just woke up one day, Alexei should wake up too!
Blow a kiss I run through air
Leave the past, find nowhere
Floating forests in the air
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Alll this black and cruel despair
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Don't you hide your eyes from me
Open them and see me now

Offline Annie

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #99 on: November 24, 2004, 09:04:47 PM »
Yes, of course!

Offline Aliard

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #100 on: December 01, 2004, 08:26:11 PM »
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I started this thread because I wanted to examine the issue of the missing bodies from every angle. I would agree with Lisa: "The more I study this case, the less I feel I know."

Especially since Greg King and Penny Wilson's book is so thoroughly researched and convincing on so many points, I felt (and feel) somewhat dismayed to disagree with them about the non-existence of a second grave. I think this theory is plausible only if you overlook Yurovsky's lack of motive for lying about a second grave and the fact that we have no way of knowing if a second grave was tampered with or destroyed all together in the intervening seventy odd years between 1918 and 1991. There is also the fact that no other plausible explanation has yet been offered for what happened to the two missing bodies (or people).

Regarding Yurovsky: I don't think he had any motive for lying about the second grave, because he seems completely unconcerned in his 1920 Note about any so-called missing bodies. If he was worried about two missing bodies, it's decidedly odd that he would write in this note that he had shot twelve people, instead of eleven. Instead of adding an extra victim who didn't exist, why didn't he subtract one who did?

If Stalin had the first, mass grave opened in 1928, as has been mentioned as a possibility elsewhere in this forum, then it's likely he had the second grave opened and/or destroyed at the same time. Given Stalin's penchant for malicious mischief-making (such as redrawing all the boundaries of various Soviet republics so that ethnic conflicts there would simmer in perpetuity), I wouldn't put it past him to have ordered the remains of Alexei and Anastasia to be destroyed or buried elsewhere. Especially since the Anna Anderson case was making such a stir in the West in the 1920s, Stalin might very well have decided to satisfy his own curiosity whilst leaving an enduring historical mystery for future generations. Certainly the Anastasia/Anna Anderson controversy continues to be divisive to this day.

The issue of the missing second grave, and the whole saga of the Romanov remains, reminds me of the story of the Princes in the Tower. Their bodies were missing for several centuries, hence the claim that they had never been killed in the first place, and the subsequent rise of various pretenders like Perkin Warbeck. But since the real princes were never seen again after the reign of Richard III, most contemporary historians assumed, rightly as it turned out, that they had been murdered.
 


As to Yurovsky's motive, lets think about this. If two of the children survived, what do you think the Soviets would do him? He'd probrably be executed; Red Russia was in a time of crisis, and it didn't look good for the Communists. To let two claimants go could spell its doom.

Offline Alice

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #101 on: December 03, 2004, 06:20:01 AM »
The thing that I find interesting about Yurovsky is that he let Leonid Sedniev (may've butchered his name there) go. This proves that he had at least some compassion, however meagre.

In light of this, it has crossed my mind (and others, I'm sure) that if he let Leonid go, possibly he let the two youngest imperial children go, too. There is, after all, several hours of "waiting" between the time Yurovsky sent for the truck, and the time it arrived. If he did let them go, I'd say this was the time they were removed from Ipatiev House.

But there is, of course, a big difference between freeing a kitchen boy, and the heir to the Imperial Russian throne, and his sister.

It has crossed my mind, but I think it very unlikely.

Offline Alice

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #102 on: December 03, 2004, 06:23:21 AM »
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As to Yurovsky's motive, lets think about this. If two of the children survived, what do you think the Soviets would do him? He'd probrably be executed; Red Russia was in a time of crisis, and it didn't look good for the Communists. To let two claimants go could spell its doom.

Yes, but if he did let them go, I can't imagine him informing Lenin of it. That'd be an extremely daft thing to do. I'd imagine it'd be hush hush.

Another possibility (just throwing ideas around, here, so excuse my lack of reality!) is that the Ural Soviet chose not to execute two members of the family in case Lenin wanted to use them as political pawns. The evidence, after all, points to the Ural Soviet executing the Romanovs without Lenin's permission.  ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Alice »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #103 on: December 03, 2004, 10:03:01 AM »
Back to the Summer and Mangold suggestion.  Maybe one or all escaped.  This needed to be covered up while a mad search took place.  We know that trains were being searched on the morning of 17 July for Alexei and others....  Maybe, the rescuers and some of the eleven were caught within the first few hours or the 17/18 of July and executed... Meanwhile the others were being rounded up....  Two [Anastasia/Marie and Alexei] were not found.....

Can you imagine the turmoil the Ural Soviets would have gone through....

There were five Latvian bodies found near the Four Brothers Mine.....  Recuers who failed??

If you climb out of the box and take away all the "red herrings" fed to us since that night,  we might discover the truth of what happen that night of 16/17  July 1918.

Having two bodies fall off a truck just doesn't seem right to  me either...

One or three bodies burnt just doesn't seem right because the number keeps changing from one person to another....

I don't even think we know who was actually present at the final buriel in Pig's Meadow or when this took place....

Trouble is too much time has lasped and too much evidence has been destroyed and all the people who knew what happen are gone.

AGRBear

PS  And let us not forget the stress  on Yurovsky and the other CHEKA was having on the Ural Soviets, because the White Army was within days of entering the city....  Many  agents of the White Army had already arrived and it was just a matter of a few days and Ekaterinburg was to be dominated by the White Army.....

Sometimes the truth can be stranger than fiction or fairy tales.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2004, 10:42:09 AM »
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As to Yurovsky's motive, lets think about this. If two of the children survived, what do you think the Soviets would do him? He'd probrably be executed; Red Russia was in a time of crisis, and it didn't look good for the Communists. To let two claimants go could spell its doom.


You need to consider this: Bolsheviks like Yurovsky did not live in a state of terror while Lenin was in power, as they later did under Stalin. In the 1920s they were the new rulers of the land. Their lack of fear is apparent in the reminiscences they wrote of the murders in the 1920s and early 1930s.  If they were so fearful of reprisal for having bungled the murders - as they clearly did, whether or not any of the victims escaped - then they would all to a man have lied about it. Instead they revelled in the recounting of the numerous "hardships" they had to endure during the executions and afterwards, when disposing of the corpses.

Yurovsky wrote four ''notes" about the Romanov murders - in 1920, 1922, 1928, and 1934. In every single one of them he repeatedly draws attention to all of the mistakes he and Ermakov made at every stage of the operation. Why? He could have lied. He could have sworn all his colleagues to secrecy. Instead he and the others repeatedly spoke and wrote quite openly about every last screw-up, from the ricocheting bullets in the Ipatiev House to the failure of the corpses to burn in Pigs' Meadow. The point is, every last one of them acted like men with nothing to hide. On the contrary, they were boastful and proud of themselves and used every opportunity - such as the tenth anniversary of the murders in 1928 - to leave yet another record of their great historical accomplishment for posterity.
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