Author Topic: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family  (Read 184722 times)

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Offline JM

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2004, 07:15:52 PM »
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I am no fan of NAOTMAA and I see the executions as an act of Revolutionary Justice. Was it nice to kill the 'cute little kids'? NO! But then again many 'cute little kids' died on Bloody Sunday, in numerous pogroms and in various military reactions to strikes and protests -- and few people are terribly keen to discuss them.

What exactly is the purpose of this "Revolutionary Justice" you speak of? Were the murders of OTMAA an appeasement to all of those who may have died under the reign of their Father? Did their deaths give credence to the new regime and did it make all those who suffered under their Father feel better? And did this "Revolutionary Justice" absolve their murderers of -- murder?

BTW, I'm not insinuating that you conform to the beliefs that my questions seem to assume; they're just questions.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Jmentanko »

Offline Belochka

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2004, 09:35:11 PM »
The only questionable act which Nikolai committed was a constitutional one. It was his act of abdication which fell outside the ambit of the Laws of Succession.

All societies have rich and poor, and this divide cannot be held against the Emperor. No such society will ever exist.  

Regicide is not "revolutionary justice" these words only color the excuse for an act of unprecedented act of barbarism against the Imperial family conducted by a bunch of drunken thugs who happened to be revolutionaries caring little about life. Look at the rewards they all reaped by their actions ... Certainly not revolutionary paradise that was promised ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Olga

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2004, 03:45:49 AM »
Nikolai II, diary entry on the issue of the October Manifesto, 19th October, 1905.

Through all these horrible days, I constantly met Witte. We very often met in the early morning to part only in the evening when night fell. There were only two ways open; to find an energetic soldier and crush the rebellion by sheer force. That would mean rivers of blood, and in the end we would be where had started. The other way out would be to give to the people their civil rights, freedom of speech and press, also to have laws conformed by a State Duma - that of course would be a constitution. Witte defends this very energetically.

Almost everybody I had an opportunity of consulting, is of the same opinion. Witte put it quite clearly to me that he would accept the Presidency of the Council of Ministers only on the condition that his programme was agreed to, and his actions not interfered with. We discussed it for two days and in the end, invoking God's help I signed. This terrible decision which nevertheless I took quite consciously. I had no one to rely on except honest Trepov. There was no other way out but to cross oneself and give what everyone was asking for.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by olga »

Offline Louise

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2004, 07:35:10 AM »
Great idea Lisa for this thread.

I would love to hear what specific crimes against the Russian people that Nicholas would be accussed of.

What specific crimes? What crimes if any would you have Alexandra charged with?

What would you do with the children? Let them go, or also charge them with crimes against the Russian people?

Louise
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Val289

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2004, 09:24:46 AM »
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What exactly is the purpose of this "Revolutionary Justice" you speak of? Were the murders of OTMAA an appeasement to all of those who may have died under the reign of their Father? Did their deaths give credence to the new regime and did it make all those who suffered under their Father feel better? And did this "Revolutionary Justice" absolve their murderers of -- murder?


BTW, I'm not insinuating that you conform to the beliefs that my questions seem to assume; they're just questions.  :)



And very good questions to ask -  JM ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Val289 »

Offline Olga

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2004, 09:30:09 AM »
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What would you do with the children? Let them go, or also charge them with crimes against the Russian people?


Why would you charge the children? They had done nothing.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2004, 09:49:42 AM »
Hypothetically, as this presumably would have been a political rather than real criminal trial, simply "being who they were" would be crime enough. Particularly the heir.  Cruel & inhuman of course, but expedient none the less.
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Offline Laura Mabee

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2004, 11:04:13 AM »
Good topic. I was in this topic when it was on the other thread.

I'm going to try and come in this thread open minded and not have fixed thoughts. However I am leaning towards the defence of teh family. NII was quite the push-over, so many of the things that happend through his rule were ideas of pushy uncles or his wife. I'm not anti-Alix at all.. Just trying to give ideas  :P

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2004, 11:28:04 AM »
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...in part...

Nikolai II, diary entry on the issue of the October Manifesto, 19th October, 1905.

Through all these horrible days, I constantly met Witte. We very often met in the early morning to part only in the evening when night fell. There were only two ways open; to find an energetic soldier and crush the rebellion by sheer force. That would mean rivers of blood, and in the end we would be where had started. The other way out would be to give to the people their civil rights, freedom of speech and press, also to have laws conformed by a State Duma - that of course would be a constitution. Witte defends this very energetically. ...

...There was no other way out but to cross oneself and give what everyone was asking for....


Sounds like Nicholas II was against the shedding of blood and, in my eyes,  these words alone seem  to  show  Nicholas II was a wiser and better man than Lenin or Stalin were at any time of their dictatorships.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2004, 11:51:48 AM »
Since the person supposedly most keen on a trial was Trotsky (I believe he even wanted to broadcast it) did he, in his voluminous writings, give details of what the charges were to be?  

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2004, 12:19:17 PM »
I put this on another thread, but it helps illustrate the point:

Goloshchyokin went to see Sverdlov in Moscow about allowing the Ural Soviet to execute the IF in early July 1918. Sverdlov consulted Lenin about what to do with the IF. Lenin spoke of bringing the tsar's family to Moscow for an open trial of Nicholas and Alexandra. "It must be an All-Russian trial only! With publications in the press.  It is necessary to count what human and material losses to the country were caused by the autocrat during his reign.  How many revolutionaries were hung? How many people died in penal servitude and in a war nobody needed? He must answer for that, facing all the people!...It is the incomprehensible Russian credulity [of the Russian peasants] that must be discredited at the open trial of Nicholas the Bloody..." as reported being said by Lenin by Goloshchyokin.

Offline Louise

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2004, 01:34:24 PM »
Olga, what would you do with the children then? Would you take them away from their parents? What would you do with Alexei? Alive he is a banner to rally behind. Dead he is a martyr.

What would you do with the girls. Would you put them on trial, because their father and his government instituted pogroms and innocent Jewish children died. Innocent children died in Bloody Sunday. Would this be the eye for an eye situation?

What would you do with Alix? Trial? Freedom? Exile?

If Nicholas was on trail, what would be the specific charges? Can we apply late 20th and 21st century to that period of time? Can we apply our rules and laws of a democracy to a autocracy? Would the charges then be leveled in the early 20th century morals and laws?

If some on the board are going to defend Nicholas and his family then we need to know what is meant by "Crimes against the Russian People"

Louise
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2004, 02:57:00 PM »
Yes, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Provisional Government initially toy with the idea of putting Nicholas and Alexandra on trial? And didn't they conduct their own intensive investigation, finally deciding that there were insufficient grounds on which to indict either the tsar or tsarina?

As for the question of OTMAA's tragic fates - don't worry, Louise, 99.9% of us do not hold children responsible for the crimes of their parents - under any circumstances. Otherwise we would all be pursuing blood feuds into infinity and civilization as we know it would collapse.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »
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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2004, 03:36:41 PM »
Elizabeth,

I agree, there were plans for a "trial" so to speak ...but due to the chaotic situation at the time (Bolshevics vs S.R.s vs. Anarchists) in the capital, the Case of "the People vs Nicholas Romanov" never took place ...There were supposedly also plans to execute Nicholas and sent the family into exile in Germany - once again this did not happen either.

I am not saying- nor have I ever said- that it was good to kill the children. Sadly life is full of good intentions and failed promises, as was Nicholas'  II  reign.



Offline Belochka

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2004, 07:48:21 PM »
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Yes, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Provisional Government initially toy with the idea of putting Nicholas and Alexandra on trial? And didn't they conduct their own intensive investigation, finally deciding that there were insufficient grounds on which to indict either the tsar or tsarina?
 


Elizabeth you are perfectly correct.

Why not look at how Nikolai's Generals, many of the Duma ministers and most of his own family acted against the Crown? It was they who plotted and turned their backs on all the Russian people. Nikolai lost the confidence of the military, and it was because of their unanimous vote against him, that he decided that his position became untenable. Winning the war was his primary concern.


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