Author Topic: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family  (Read 186286 times)

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Offline Olga

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2004, 09:34:25 PM »
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Olga, what would you do with the children then? Would you take them away from their parents? What would you do with Alexei? Alive he is a banner to rally behind. Dead he is a martyr.


I cannot see him surviving because of his position as the Heir.

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What would you do with the girls. Would you put them on trial, because their father and his government instituted pogroms and innocent Jewish children died. Innocent children died in Bloody Sunday. Would this be the eye for an eye situation?


Send them into exile.

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As for the question of OTMAA's tragic fates - don't worry, Louise, 99.9% of us do not hold children responsible for the crimes of their parents - under any circumstances.


Iím included in this 99.9%.

Alexandra Fyodorovna wasn't totally blameless. She was a severe reactionary and fought against any sort of reform for the Russian people.

Offline Louise

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2004, 09:50:25 PM »
Ok so †the girls are sent into exile.

Now what are the specific crimes against the Russian people would you have Nicholas charged with? Would you follow the example of the court (Parliament) that tried Charles I? Would you use the trials at Nurmburg as an example, along with the set of laws that was established by the winning powers after the war.
I don't have my Nuremburg book with me so I can't quite remember all four/five articles and their subarticles.

Would you have a separate trial for Alix? Would N and A be tried together and how would you try Alexei and on what charges?

So, Alix was a severe reactionary who didn't want change for her country. How would you try her for this?

Louise
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louise »
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2004, 12:28:26 AM »
So, other than the specific charges (and I agree, any charges brought against Nicholas would have to be specific and not general), those who think that Nicholas committed crimes against Russia also believe:

- The Grand Duchesses should go free regardless and sent into exile. Would that be with or without their personal property?

- Alexei would be punished identically to his parents (assuming they would be found guilty) even though he was a minor, primarily because of his political position.

- Therefore, the charges to be brought would be brought against Nicholas and Alexandra. Would that be together or separately?

Offline Belochka

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2004, 12:47:10 AM »
Lisa,

Perhaps those who believe that Nikolai is guilty of crimes against the State should specify which Court would have the jurisdiction?


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Offline Belochka

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2004, 01:07:03 AM »
What I would like to understand is why some posters here are so quick to condemn Nikolai, yet prefer to ignore the deeds of all those upon whom he relied.


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Offline Olga

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2004, 03:08:07 AM »
He surrounded himself with yes men.

Offline pushkina

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2004, 07:04:01 AM »
let me make a stab at beginning the process.(and this is NOT about NII's persoanl anti-semitism)

when one is beginning to try to construct a case against a leader or a system, there are guidelines as to how to do it.

one can begin with evidence that the leader, his underlings or agencies within his direct control broke specific laws on their own books, laws such as murder, rape, theft, corruption, financial crimes, intimidation (if there are such laws available). that means interviewing eyewitnesses to these events.

usually there are episodes throughout a reign that are identified as incidents appropriate for such further study.  in the case of NII, i would begin with the pogroms in the pale.  as emperor, he had a duty of care for all members of his empire. he was the ultimate guarantor of the law. yet, in the case of the ejws, he failed utterly to keep them safe, from members of his own regime and agencies.

beginning in 1881, more than 30 pogroms were instigated in ukraine, escalating and leading up to the kiev pogrom, the warsaw xmas pogrom, the 1891-92 expulsion of jews from moscow and peaked by the spectacularly murderous events in kishinev in 1903 (+45 dead, hundreds wounded) and odessa in 1905 (+300 dead/thousands injured). in a state with such tight police control as the czarist state, i would examine the okhrana as an agency directly reportable to NII.

there were many testimonies compiled on behalf of a variety of international agencies of the time, so there is firsthand testimony of the particulars.  and there was a large memoir literature written by folks who fled. and of course the best evidence: the millions of jews residing in the pale who emigrated rather than live in such an insecure place.

the state sponsored pogroms were more than just riots: they could be called what we today call "state sponsored terrorism" they were part of the policy created by Pobedenostsev; one third to convert, one third to emigrate, one third to disappear.

NII knew that the kishinev progroms were planned; his minsitry of internal affairs was involved, he personally helped to pay for the leaflets to incite the ugly affair.

between oct 11-29, 1905 there were at least 690 pogroms which murdered thousands, wounded thousands more.  these pogroms were partially incited by two texts the okhrana (and the court of NII) was instrumental in publishing and disseminating: the protocols of the elders of zion and the great in the small.

since WWII, there is a body of international law dealing with genocide, war crimes, the mismanagement of prisoners of war, making war on civilians.  these laws are not retrospective so could not be applied against NII.
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Offline Louise

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2004, 07:41:03 AM »
Olga, surrounding yourself with YES men is not a crime against anyone, except perhaps to show how incompetent are as a leader. The sad truth is that our leaders past and present have for the most part surrounded themselves with YES men. Dumb, but not a crime and it would not stand up  in any court of law. Then or now.

Pushkina, thank you for your input regarding the Jewish pale and the pogroms that happened under Nicholas's reign.

Louise
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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2004, 09:33:42 AM »
Being a (reformed) attorney, let me give you some assistance here.
FIRST, you have to have a specific crime: "murder" "theft" "abuse" etc etc.
then you must demonstrate the crime by specific actions of the person. Basic elements of a criminal prosecution:
a) a crime occurred by showing direct evidence of the crime.
b) the accused  intended the crime occur in advance of the criminal act taking place.
c) the accused directly himself engaged in the criminal activity
d) if he did NOT directly engage in the action, he had knowledge and intent PRIOR to the action occuring and took some direct action (or intentionally FIALED to act to prevent the crime in order that it occur) to aid and abet the commission of that criminal act.

So, for example:
Charge 1 against Nicholas II: "Murder"
Evidence: beginning in 1881, more than 30 pogroms were instigated in ukraine, escalating and leading up to the kiev pogrom, the warsaw xmas pogrom, the 1891-92 expulsion of jews from moscow and peaked by the spectacularly murderous events in kishinev in 1903 (+45 dead, hundreds wounded) and odessa in 1905 (+300 dead/thousands injured).
Now, it must be demonstrated that Nicholas a)KNEW in advance about the pogroms. b) consented, approved or by LACK of action otherwise abetted the pogroms, and c)actually intended the harm and murder of the Jews so affected.

Carry on...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2004, 10:37:34 AM »
Thanks FA...

† I will not be participating in this trial discussion
because any trial presupposes the possible innocence of the accused...and it also suggests that one could possibly rule as an Autocrat innocently. We all realize that the idea of this trial was partially an attempt to point out to "any peasants" who "might still have some shreds of loyalty to the Tsar" just what he had done...(Lenin said this, not me) and to try to legitimize the rights of the Bolshevics in the west.
† Had I been there at that time I would have enjoyed such a trial --- but then again I'm just [glb]pure evil![/glb] ;D ;D ;D

LOL
red rskkiya

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2004, 12:11:57 PM »
Since the Jewish people, or so I've been lead to believe,  were not protected against progroms during the reign of Nicholas II and because the Jewish people have collected a huge amount of data to prove to the world that they have suffered under most monarchs, dictators, and other govt., †I suspect all the mentioned †proof -- voiced above by Admin. Forum -- against Nicholas II has been discovered and a great wealth of written material is available for all of us to see.


That said, †I can not assume Nicholas II gave any direct orders for one or all progroms. †Can anyone show us †one example that Nicholas II did in fact give such an order, AND, †if Nicholas II did give such an order, please, explain why that order was given?

AGRBear

PS †This is a subject which emotions can run very †very high, so, I'm not sure what is going to follow my question, however, I hope we can just deal with the facts and please give your sources.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2004, 12:15:23 PM »
For the record
I was NOT actually offering up the Pogroms as specific charges. I was just using them, since already mentioned, just as an EXAMPLE of how this discussion should proceed, and using them to demonstrate the criminal law process.
FA

Offline Louise

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2004, 12:22:19 PM »
Another question to ask is, can Nicholas be held accountable for any of the action taken by Alexander III in the pograms against the Jewish people. If not, then would his alleged crimes against the Russian people start in 1894? If he is not accountable for his father's actions, then can Alexei be held accountable for Nicholas's.

If Alexei isn't accountable, why wouldn't he survive? Again, what do you do with the heir to the throne? Kill him? Exile him?

What do you do with Alix?

Louise

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louise »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2004, 12:29:41 PM »
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For the record
I was NOT actually offering up the Pogroms as specific charges. I was just using them, since already mentioned, just as an EXAMPLE of how this discussion should proceed, and using them to demonstrate the criminal law process.
FA


This is a charge, the progroms,  often given against Nicholas II so let's talk about it. †

And, let's talk about:  Is a person can be guilty of the "crimes of his father's"?

Is Nicholas II guilty of "murder" because of the events of Bloody Sundy?

A lot is on our plate.

So, †let's see what everyone thinks.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2004, 02:29:58 PM »
Legally speaking, one can not be held accountable for the actions of any other person unless it can be demonstrated that the accused had prior knowlege of the criminal act before it occured, intended the criminal act by the other person should occur, and took some step to aid and abet the crime (or intentional failure to act to prevent the crime).

So, legally speaking, Nicholas II can't be found guilty of any act of Alexander III, unless he knew about the criminal act, intended the criminal result occur and aided and abetted the crime.