Author Topic: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?  (Read 203652 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #735 on: July 26, 2012, 05:21:32 PM »
Quote
I had friends who were A1 and my cousin skirted the draft by entering the Air Force. For those who don't know - the draft took you immediately into the Army. In order to go into another branch of the service one had to enlist and many - like GW Bush chose the National Guard. That wouldn't work today because the National Guard units are always being sent to "hot" zones.

They wouldn't have to do this today, as the Draft was abandoned back in the 70's (I think the British abandoned National Service around the same time, although Ann or Thea might know more about that, since both are British).  Most Western countries nowadays, you enter the military by your own choice, not because the government tells you to.  The only democratic countries where military service is compulsory are ones that are constantly under threat of war (Israel comes to mind here).
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #736 on: July 26, 2012, 05:56:54 PM »
As should Switzerland a country that has maintained it neutrality during every war in this century. I would seem that compulsive military service does not mean instant "rice paddy" or instant Afghanistan in other countries, but it means that no one messes with the Swiss.

Back to the topic.  We are drifting badly.

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6649
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #737 on: July 26, 2012, 06:17:34 PM »
In the US, we no longer have the draft, however, young men between 18-25 still must register with the Selective Service, in case it is revived [unlikely, as the  military prefers an all volunteer force.
 Many countries still require national service, but it does always mean military.
 I hesitate to join this part of the discussion as it is  sort of off topic, but, I too am a "child of the 60s "revolution.
 I had a 4d deferment so never  had to deal with the draft, but plenty of my friends did, from the secular part of my life.
 My school actually encouraged activism. First Civil Rights.  We participated in protest and demonstrations, all fairly mild. Then anti war.
 I saw no conflict in following my convictions as a pacifist and I did not use family or taxpayer money for anything. I paid my own way- all the way.
 Moratoriums and demonstrations were usually organised for times when classes were out, so there should be no opposition from anyone for demonstrating what one was  convinced of. The war was wrong, a waste and a horrible division in the country. The hatred and ignorance expressed Ugly American at it's best.
 How would any of you feel when, at lunchtime, a peaceful anti war demonstration on campus is  attacked by  your own national guard [Kent State] killing  4 of your fellow students, unarmed and just expressing thier rights ?
 When I was with my summer friends,  a lot of them were either drafted or enlisted, {Marines, mostly in my experience] and I heard the first hand stories of fragging and self mutilation amongst the troops, discontent was rampant. These incidents were rampant, but mostly hidden by the Pentagon because of "national interest"
 The anti war movement was a vast influence in the change of society, indeed. It was the eventual fall of the Birchers and their ilk, exposing intolerant, bigoted and blind attitude towards any who disagreed with them.
 They refused to listen and called every opposition a Communist.
 Up to this point, it sounds very much like Russia in the civil discontent of their era and the military collapse as well.
 For me, it was a very trying time personally. I explored many avenues to find my own truth,  even the Socialist and Communist parties, I ended up with the Quakers, however.
 In both cases, Russia in 1905 on and the US  in the 60s on, immense social changes were made.
 Many of us would not have the freedom and self entitlement we have now if it were not for those actions.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 06:35:44 PM by Alixz »
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #738 on: July 27, 2012, 02:31:29 AM »
National Service ended in Britain in 1960. There was a degree of choice of service and trade within that service, but the army got the majority of recruits and the Navy very few (to do National Service with the Navy you had to join the naval reserve first, in practice). It was possible to sign on as a regular for 3 years, and this was apparently popular as it meant much better pay and a wider choice of trades.

Back to Russia.

Ann

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #739 on: July 27, 2012, 12:10:24 PM »
Of course, one would expect a draft in an autocratic country more than one would in a democratic one.
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #740 on: July 27, 2012, 01:05:35 PM »
I do believe that I read that the average male could expect to be considered for conscription for somewhere between 25 and 35 years of his life.

I don't know when the law was passed or what Tsar instituted it.

But that alone seems harsh and would have brought about uprisings and rebellion in the families of those who could be called without notice and taken away from the farms and the labor that was needed to feed their families.

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6649
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #741 on: July 27, 2012, 01:32:15 PM »
Interesting, Ann. Of all my British friends over the years I have  only 2 or 3 that actually served in the military, and they were in the RAF. Clerical , not pilots.  My own partner was in the USAF when we met 42 years ago. [Wkist I was marching against the war not the uniforms] I also had an elderly friend who worked at Bletchley Park.  I do not know if he was seconded [maths professor] or joined in another way.  Most of my friends now were not even born in 1960 so naturally, they had no experience of it. Of course, all [or most] of their parents did. I find the fascinating when they tell their stories, especially  Britain during the war years.
 As for service in the Russian Empire,  those conscripted from the  fields were usually taken in the season when the fields were fallow and allowed to return for harvest or other major work was in order. I think that dates from Peter 1st.
 My best friend in Russia served ate the time of change, started as a Red Army , direct from being a cadet in artillery school in St.P. I have seen that school and it is a beautiful building, might have been a palace in the Empire days We have not been able to find out  for sure yet. He left as a RF army sargeant.  He tells me of the overall confusion of that time.
 And Tim, part of what you say may be true, but many democratic countries has national service as well. The ones I am familiar with are usually just 2 years after college, or  after graduation from high school.  Vagrancy also plays a role in conscription in some countries.
 I may be out of date with this, but Germany still has/had national service, which takes a variety of forms and is  fairly easy to avoid.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #742 on: July 27, 2012, 05:04:18 PM »
We need to get back to the topic at hand.

What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6649
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #743 on: July 27, 2012, 06:54:34 PM »
Fine with me, but I feel we have exhausted that discussion, hence the  digressions.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #744 on: July 28, 2012, 07:04:50 AM »
Finland still has conscription, for one year. I worked with a Finn a few years ago, who said that there was a civilian alternative, but it was very much the expectation among employers and preofessional bodies that any patriotic young man would do military service. This chap was a pacifist so served as an army medic.

Ann

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6649
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #745 on: July 28, 2012, 11:05:04 AM »
The Swiss as well,  and ASAIK, most Latin & South American countries, in some form or another. On the face of it, the RF is a democracy and still has conscription. It seems  to be far more common than most realise. And it comes in many forms.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Petr

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #746 on: July 30, 2012, 09:57:58 AM »
I have a humble suggestion which hopefully gets us back on track and perhaps ties in some of what we have been discussing. I am responsible I fear for getting us of track by raising the issue of the deleterious effects of war on society and WWI on Russia in particular (with the possible inference that NII could not have saved his throne under those circumstance), but as many have pointed out the seeds of collapse started much earlier (as early as the reign of NI according to one poster). We touched on the disenchantment of students who had been conscripted into the Army which segued into the "revolution" in the US in the 60's. I am curious to hear from all of you about the effects of the activities of the "Narodnaya Volya" ("People's Will") and others in the late 19th Century (e.g., Bakunin, Cherneshevsky, etc.). What effect did the assassination of AII have on his son and grandson?   The assassinations of Stolypin and GD Sergei? We tend to focus on the "big" names but actually, the ones who really suffered were the provincial governors and bureaucrats.  How would we react if one or more of our Governors and Department Heads are assassinated for political reasons (somehow all our Presidential assassinations and attempted assassinations, with the possible exception of Lincoln, tended to be by troubled non-politicals such the assassins of Garfield, McKinley, JFK and attempts on Ford (despite her connection to the Manson gang I don't think Squeaky Frome was very political) and Reagan (Q.E.D. Hinckley))? 

An interesting case in point were the changing political views of M. N. Katkov (cf., http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4205883?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21100951431453[url] and from Wikipedia [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_N._Katkov]http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4205883?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21100951431453http:// and from Wikipedia [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_N._Katkov who began as a European educated liberal and advisor to AII and ended up a conservative advisor to AIII (in the interests of full disclosure my Great Great Grandfather). Is there a parallel to what we are experiencing since 9/11 or earlier (Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing, Sheik Abdel Rahman and the earlier World Trade Center Bombing, etc.) and the US reaction (and also European reaction to the London and Spanish Bombings). How does the current religious based violence compare to the terrorism of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries and do societies have the right to defend themselves and if so is the rule of law sufficient? Finally, did those terrorist activities set the stage for 1905 and thereafter and ultimately lead to the collapse of the monarchy and could it happen in modern western democracies?

Petr
               
Rumpo non plecto

Offline Petr

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #747 on: July 30, 2012, 01:12:59 PM »
I tried to access the first cited article on Katkov. You should try the following:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/4205883.

Unfortunately, it's only a preview and unless you have access you have to subscribe.

Petr
Rumpo non plecto