Author Topic: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?  (Read 204382 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #135 on: September 07, 2010, 03:27:15 PM »
Quote
The USA is a huge melting pot that came very late in the history of civilizations.  We had the good luck of having our founders understanding what was needed for different people to live peacefully side by side.

Tell that to the natives who were slaughtered and driven off their lands.
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #136 on: September 07, 2010, 06:38:16 PM »
Tim, I think you missed the line that followed:

>>True,  we've have many imperfections, but we keep trying to improve with age. <<

I didn't name all our imperfections but I'll toss out two biggies:  Our treatment of the Indians and Slavery was terrible....

In real life,  Nicholas II certainly wasn't perfect, however, in this "what if" world,  if he had been more prepared and understood the real purpose of the  First Duma in 1906 he should have  established elective officials that represented all of the Russian citizens and cut out the "absolute power" by the Tsar by giving the Duma some real teeth [power and money]  to establish their resolutions.  Perhaps his goal would have been something like but not exactly like the British since this would be a just the beginning stages of a new government.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #137 on: September 07, 2010, 07:13:30 PM »
The Chinese peer groups were  just as dominate under Imperial China as it is today. Communism has worked itself around and has absorbed the Chinese who never knew individual freedoms and has been of one mind for thousands of years.

Russia has been different due to it's many ethnic groups.  It never has been of one mind.  
AGRBear

AGRBear, I can't really let this pass, you make it sound as if what reigned in imperial China, aside from an emperor, was one single political ideology, religion, culture, etc... It was in fact an astonishingly diverse array of all of these. Even hundreds of years ago China had many religions - Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, to cite only the major ones. It also had (and has to this day) a lot of ethnic minorities, chiefly because of its territorial expansion (much as Russia's territorial expansion added to its own ethnic minority population).

Your notion that Russia "has never been of one mind" while China basically always has  - is just so much nonsense. I don't understand why you have to mix up your very valid points about your family and your own experiences in the world with these historically unfounded musings. I have the impression you've certainly read widely about Russian history but your knowledge of Chinese history is even more limited than my own, if that's possible.


When watching the last Olympics, one could see that they, the Chinese,  were still under the influence of  "collective happiness" and are still of one mind,  their leader's, a communist, who holds the absolute power just as the  Emperors had for thousands of years....

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #138 on: September 07, 2010, 07:33:36 PM »
Tim, I think you missed the line that followed:

>>True,  we've have many imperfections, but we keep trying to improve with age. <<

I didn't name  our imperfections.   I'm sure we can agree on what many of them are.  For, now,  I'll toss out two biggies:  Our treatment of the Indians and Slavery was terrible....

In real life,  Nicholas II certainly wasn't perfect, however, in this "what if" world,  if he had been more prepared and understood the real purpose of the  First Duma in 1906 he should have  established elective officials that represented all of the Russian citizens and cut out the "absolute power" by the Tsar by giving the Duma some real teeth [power and money]  to establish their resolutions.  Perhaps his goal would have been something like but not exactly like the British since this would be a just the beginning stages of a new government.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Elisabeth

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2131
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #139 on: September 07, 2010, 07:36:37 PM »
When watching the last Olympics, one could see that they, the Chinese,  were still under the influence of  "collective happiness" and are still of one mind,  their leader's, a communist, who holds the absolute power just as the  Emperors had for thousands of years....

You don't think foreigners came away with exactly the same impression of Americans after watching the opening and closing ceremonies of the Olympics held in Salt Lake City? Bear, everything at this level is about "collective happiness" and proving we're all so much happier and better off materially and psychologically and ideologically than the rest of the world. That's the American dream, right? And considering that at the time we'd just invaded Iraq, and were embarked on an ultimately disastrous war, we were indeed pretty blind and passive, much as you seem to expect the Chinese or the Russian people to be...
... I love my poor earth
because I have seen no other

-- Osip Mandelshtam

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #140 on: September 08, 2010, 12:07:39 AM »
 
Quote
their leader's, a communist, who holds the absolute power just as the  Emperors had for thousands of years....



Well, that is what Communism essentially is, an Absolute Monarchy (a privileged few have powers and perks).  All they did was change the names.
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Constantinople

  • Guest
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #141 on: September 08, 2010, 02:39:20 AM »
There are several ethnic minorities in China.  these include the Zhuangs, Manchus, Huis, Miaos, Uyghurs, Dongs, Kazakhs and Tibetans.

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #142 on: September 08, 2010, 10:41:32 AM »
Nicky created the Duma, he should have stepped aside and let them run the country, while he became a figurehead, like his British relatives. 

As I said, the British Monarchy is still around, nearly a century after all the other major European ones fells.  Obviously, they were doing something right.
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Offline Elisabeth

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2131
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #143 on: September 08, 2010, 04:05:18 PM »
Of course theoretically you're completely right, Tim. The only problem is that at the turn of the 20th century, Russia itself was not quite fitted to be a constitutional monarchy. With approximately 80 percent of the population illiterate peasants, it hardly could be... Some people even now, in the early 21st century, argue that Russia is still not ready for democracy, but I disagree with this.
... I love my poor earth
because I have seen no other

-- Osip Mandelshtam

Constantinople

  • Guest
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #144 on: September 08, 2010, 05:17:55 PM »
Wasn't it Count Witte who created the Duma and nicholas who acceded to it under pressure?

Offline Silja

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #145 on: September 09, 2010, 12:33:20 PM »
Of course theoretically you're completely right, Tim. The only problem is that at the turn of the 20th century, Russia itself was not quite fitted to be a constitutional monarchy.

Which was proved by the  chaotic  events in the Duma after the 1905 revolution and again after the Revolution of 1917.

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #146 on: September 10, 2010, 11:30:26 AM »
Seems poor Nicky was just in a no-win situation.
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Constantinople

  • Guest
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #147 on: September 10, 2010, 04:46:59 PM »
I would say that Nicholas did a lot to create a no win situation

Offline Sergei Witte

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 131
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #148 on: September 10, 2010, 05:29:41 PM »
First, thank you  for the compliments on my education. I went to boarding schools and had  good of teachers.  For the most part, that is. I do humbly  acknowledge the flattery.
 Elisabeth, I do understand your points.  Perhaps I am being pedantic,  but what you are saying was propaganda to keep the  peasants in line [or fear] There is a  line in Fiddler on the Roof,- " May God bless and keep the Tsar, far away from us" Not my favourite show,  but it illustart es the point.
  Now, Bear, we have been  adversaries for year, but if I can  refer to some obscure church Slavonic  book from  my old school days, she is certainly entitled to cite Blackwell. I find the volume rather simplistic, but just my way at looking at things'

Of course it was imperial propaganda, Robert, that's the whole point. No government of this nature can survive without an ideology, which pretty much assumes there will be some kind of official (and unofficial) propaganda to put the message out.

One of the problems of the current regime in Russia is that there is no coherent ideology. What does exist is primarily based on nostalgia, and even that's muddled - one day Stalin is in, the next day he's out.

Plenty of empires have fallen for lack of a coherent ideology, or so I learned in my college course on Chinese history. If you compare Chinese history to Russian history it makes the latter look pretty amateur.


Elisabeth, Robert, maybe I don't understand you both right but wasn't that the whole point of autocracy: that the Tsar don't need any justification for his actions, so in his eyes he didn't need propaganda? That was their ideology.

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6649
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: What Could Nicholas II Have Done to Preserve the Imperial Throne?
« Reply #149 on: September 10, 2010, 07:03:18 PM »
To a certain extent, you are correct, SW.  However he did need the imprimatur of the Church, which he was technically head of. He also needed the support of the masses  to keep order in the realm.  No one wanted another Pugachev, after all. So this was a way to keep the peasantry in line. You can see Scenarios of Power  by Wortman, vol. 2. The Emperor was supposed to take the adv ice of his ministers to rule effectively and fairly. IMO  he failed at all of these tasks.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.