Author Topic: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?  (Read 42738 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2004, 08:28:09 PM »
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Can you please explain what you mean by 13?


Yes, I'll second that, I thought there were only 11.  ???

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2004, 10:51:51 AM »
A certain person threatened us with a lawsuit for discussing his, IN OUR PERSONAL OPINION and nothing more, impossible theories. He is not welcome here as a result and we will not permit discussion of them or by him in any way shape or form in order to prevent any further threats of lawsuits. Any reference in this forum OF ANY SORT will be immediately removed. To be blunt, ANYONE who threatens this Forum with litigation as a result of discussion of their claims will be similaly treated, for obvious reasons.
So, if you have found your recent posts modified, this is the reason. We apologise for any inconvenience
FA

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2004, 12:00:21 PM »
Although I do not recall ever discussing any indivdual's claims, pro or con, I do beg to ask: how do we avoid such a mention if we do not know who this person is?
Personally, I think the "person" whoever he is, is quite insecure and childish.
Best,
Robert
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Offline RichC

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2004, 02:09:07 PM »
It is wrong to perpetuate myths about what happened to these people.  They all died at the hands of their captors and the evidence (much discussed and written about on this forum and in thousands of respected books and journal articles) is overwhelming.

In my view, to deny what happened to the victims (especially the children and servants) is offensive.  It takes away from what they must have sufferred and lets the killers off the hook.  History should hold those who killed the IF accountable.

Offline ISteinke

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2004, 04:07:04 PM »
Okay-
    Here is my take on the issue. All of you know, by now, that I am 100% convinced that AA was Anastasia. Having read all of the evidence about scars, memories, etc., I cannot see any possible way that it could be otherwise.
     Having read the story of Heino Tammet [Canada] I have a tentative but increasing confidence that he was, indeed, Tsarevich Alexei. Part of my conviction [in this area] lies with the fact that he never tried to make any claims to an identity, whatsoever. He just lived as an ordinary person, and happened to reveal to his wife who his parents and other relatives were. Also, the writer of the famous article [about Tammet] makes a pretty convincing case that it is at least POSSIBLE that Alexei could have suffered from Leukemia rather than hemophilia.
      Also, there is evidence that Benckendorff had something to do with Tammet's exit from Russia.
      I think the discovery of the bones in the Koptyaki Forest pretty well ends any pipe-dreams that Nicholas, Alexandra and OTM... survived. Also, there was never any solid historical tradition [from the Ekaterinburg locals] or rumour that these Romanovs had survived. The allegations surrounding survival of Alexei and Anastasia began long before either Mrs. Anderson or Heino Tammet became known.
      It seems to me that Heino Tammet and Anna Anderson are the only claimants who possessed serious evidence of any kind [in their favour]. The others [as most of us will agree] were quackish types that were easy to dismiss.
     By the way, if the sons of Heino Tammet were DNA tested to be grandsons of Tsar Nicholas, the whole composition of the "succession debate" would change.

Offline Douglas

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2004, 04:55:25 PM »
 IST.......Writes: Here is my take on the issue. All of you know, by now, that I am 100% convinced that AA was Anastasia. Having read all of the evidence about scars, memories, etc., I cannot see any possible way that it could be otherwise.


Douglas  replies:

The idea that AA was Anastasia is totally absurd.  Especially when you consider that  AA spoke perfect POLISH.

There is not one shred of evidence that  Anastasia ever spoke  POLISH.

Offline Grand_Duke_Alexei

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2004, 06:38:42 PM »
 I retract my earlier theory.  It does not at all fit.  Especially the bone substitutions, I read over more recent DNA evidence and I was appalled at how wrong I was.  I apologize for my impractical theory of survival, and I am sorry for the inconvience.  But, I still want the thread to go on so I can hear other people's explanations of their theories.  I believe that I am leaning more to most were killed in Ekaterinburg, I am not what to make of the two missing bodies.  Maybe they did escape, maybe they didn't, I don't think that we will know for awhile.
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Offline ptitchka

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2004, 06:39:41 PM »
Quote
Okay-
     Here is my take on the issue. All of you know, by now, that I am 100% convinced that AA was Anastasia. Having read all of the evidence about scars, memories, etc., I cannot see any possible way that it could be otherwise.
      Having read the story of Heino Tammet [Canada] I have a tentative but increasing confidence that he was, indeed, Tsarevich Alexei. Part of my conviction [in this area] lies with the fact that he never tried to make any claims to an identity, whatsoever. He just lived as an ordinary person, and happened to reveal to his wife who his parents and other relatives were. Also, the writer of the famous article [about Tammet] makes a pretty convincing case that it is at least POSSIBLE that Alexei could have suffered from Leukemia rather than hemophilia.
       Also, there is evidence that Benckendorff had something to do with Tammet's exit from Russia.
       I think the discovery of the bones in the Koptyaki Forest pretty well ends any pipe-dreams that Nicholas, Alexandra and OTM... survived. Also, there was never any solid historical tradition [from the Ekaterinburg locals] or rumour that these Romanovs had survived. The allegations surrounding survival of Alexei and Anastasia began long before either Mrs. Anderson or Heino Tammet became known.
       It seems to me that Heino Tammet and Anna Anderson are the only claimants who possessed serious evidence of any kind [in their favour]. The others [as most of us will agree] were quackish types that were easy to dismiss.
      By the way, if the sons of Heino Tammet were DNA tested to be grandsons of Tsar Nicholas, the whole composition of the "succession debate" would change.



It remains to be seen just how many bonafide medical experts, particularly hematologists, experts on leukemia, and experts on hemophilia, would have a favorable opinion of Mr. John Kendrick's recent article in the American Journal of Hematology.  Publication does not necessarily mean that what are essentially back references from the case of this unfortunate Estonian claimant truly hold any water.

The elaborate constructs occurring late in this otherwise colorful and versatile Renaissance man's life suggest that he developed an over-identification with the young Prince in order to cope with the precipitating stress of his medical condition, due to certain symptoms he displayed that were similar to hemophilia.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2004, 07:25:05 PM »
If Alexei had leukemia and not hemophilia, then what about all the other Queen Victoria descendants who suffered from it? Did they have leukemia too? The symptoms and the way this disease is transmitted, via the female line only to males, are consistent with hemophilia not leukemia...

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2004, 08:18:33 PM »
Quote
A certain person threatened us with a lawsuit for discussing his, IN OUR PERSONAL OPINION and nothing more, impossible theories. He is not welcome here as a result and we will not permit discussion of them or by him in any way shape or form in order to prevent any further threats of lawsuits. Any reference in this forum OF ANY SORT will be immediately removed. To be blunt, ANYONE who threatens this Forum with litigation as a result of discussion of their claims will be similaly treated, for obvious reasons.
So, if you have found your recent posts modified, this is the reason. We apologise for any inconvenience
FA


FA, I noticed that one of my posts here was removed. I didn't realize I said anything law-suit worthy. Thousands of apologies if I did :o  ;)

Helen
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2004, 08:25:51 PM »
Did we ever hear who the extra 2 people were? Did I miss something ?
Robert
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Offline ptitchka

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2004, 09:45:47 PM »
Quote
If Alexei had leukemia and not hemophilia, then what about all the other Queen Victoria descendants who suffered from it? Did they have leukemia too? The symptoms and the way this disease is transmitted, via the female line only to males, are consistent with hemophilia not leukemia...



Good point, Helen.  Of course Alexei had hemophilia, and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear.  The Estonian claimant's chief publicist cannot back up his theories with any proof that Prince Leopold, 'Frittie', Alfonso or any of the other royal hemophiliacs -- or the martyred Tsarevich himself, for that matter -- had the form of leukemia or aplastic anemia suggested in the AJH article.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Pravoslavnaya »

Offline ISteinke

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2004, 07:02:19 AM »
All I said was that the author of said article makes a good, well-argued case for his point, to the effect that it COULD BE.

Remember, we have no medical records from the doctors of the Tsarevich, WHATSOEVER. In abscense of those medical records, from an empirical standpoint, it would be impossible to prove that he had hemophilia, or any other disease.

Also, Helen made a comment about surviving for 14 years without proper medical treatment. What? Were the Tsar and his wife peasants? Could they not afford or provide medical treatment for their children?

Also, from an evidential standpoint- The fact that other children and grandchildren of Queen Victoria had hemophilia does not in itself prove that Alexei had hemophilia. That is circumstantial evidence.

If I had three cousins who had hemophilia, and I, in fact, had leukemia, would the fact that my three cousins were sufferers of hemophilia then make me a sufferer of hemophilia? No. Not unless I, myself, was victimized by the disease.

If challenged in court, it could not be proven, absolutely, beyond a reasonable doubt, using normal methods of evidence, that Alexei had hemophilia [instead of another blood disorder]. I'm not saying he didn't have it. I'm also not saying that Heino Tammet was Alexei. I'm saying that, evidentially the question of the nature of Alexei's illness isn't a closed case.

Offline Annie

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2004, 07:22:04 AM »
Quote
Also, Helen made a comment about surviving for 14 years without proper medical treatment. What? Were the Tsar and his wife peasants? Could they not afford or provide medical treatment for their children?



It doesn't matter how much money they had, treatment for leukemia was not available in medical advances of the time. There was no bone marrow transplant, no chemo,no medicines. Anyone who had it, especially a child, would not have lived very long. Even today, with all the medical discoveries, people don't always survive. Earlier this year, I lost a dear cousin to that dread disease. She was a previously  healthy 32 year old woman who was an ad executive and had plenty of money and the best of health care. She only lived 9 months after her diagnosis. So I can see how a child 100 years ago would have much less chance. Hemophilia ran in the family, so naturally it is a likely possibility. Besides, as you say 'they were not peasants' they could afford the best doctors, well, they did, and those doctors said Alexei had hemophilia!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Theories About the Survial of the Imperial Family ... What if?
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2004, 07:32:41 AM »
There are different forms of leukemia, including pediatric forms, some more severe than others. Prognosis really depends on the type of leukemia and varies from person to person...