Author Topic: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna  (Read 87215 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« on: December 16, 2004, 01:44:41 PM »
Was it possible that it was Tatiana who survived?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 10:01:38 PM by Alixz »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2004, 01:45:34 PM »
Quote
At the risk of going round an old loop for members I'm afraid Occleshaw's book does not bear serious examination.  A few points:

1/  Occleshaw has "Tatiana" flown out of Ekaterinberg by the British.  He doesn't explain how any aircraft got there or how it managed to then fly her to Vladivostok.  I have spoken at some length on this subject with the former editor of "Cross & Cockade International" and we are agreed there was no aircraft at the time could have feasibly done this.

2/ Occleshaw claims that records of the RAF contingent in North Russia 1918 (where he assumes the aircraft came from) are not released into the National Archive AIR1 papers and claims to have information they never will be.  He is correct in this - because they are in the AIR2 series and I have copies of them in my drawer.  Curiously they make no reference to a rescue mission.

3/ Occleshaw claims that Richard Meinertzhagen was working for a War Office section dealing with Intelligence on Russia - not according to the contemporary War Office List he wasn't.

4/ Occleshaw claims that a mysterious Miss Marguerite Lindsay who entered UK on 8 August 1918 on the same ship as Mrs Meinertzhagen was "Tatiana" as there is no record of her ever existing.  Those interested can trace her previous trans-atlantic journeys by looking her up on the Ellis Island web-site.  She seems to have travelled frequently prior to 1918.

5/ Occleshaw neglects to mention, in his excitement at finding Miss Lindsay arriving on the same ship as Mrs Meinertzhagen, that Richard meinertzhagen and his wife loathed each other like poison and their marriage was likely never consumated.  Mrs M is hardly the person he'd trust on a delicate mission.

Just a few of the fairly serious objections to Occleshaw's book which older members may have seen before.

Phil Tomaselli
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2004, 01:51:13 PM »
There is noted in some books that an airplane did fly over the Impatiev House and it's presents seem to distrub the CHEKA.

The RAF were not the only airplanes in the sky.  The Reds and the Whites had their own airplanes.

I've forgotten the URL but there is a site that talks about the WWI Aces and there is some on the Red and White air forces.  

I remember seeing in the Russian SF museum some photographs of the White Army pilots who were considered heroes.

Course,  I'm not saying that Occleshaw's story is how Tatiana escaped,  if she is the one who did,  I'm just adding to what Phil was saying.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Alice

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2004, 06:09:25 PM »
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Was it possible that it was Tatiana who survived?

AGRBear


Yes, if umpteem American and Russian experts are wrong.

Otherwise, no.

Offline Annie

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2004, 07:37:28 PM »
As with the the other sisters, there is a difference between 'missing' and 'survived.' A body is missing, but that doesn't necessarily mean she got away:(

Offline Laura Mabee

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2004, 11:15:12 PM »
Hey guys, Livadia.org has a worked on a research paper with some others on this subject.

Here is the link:
http://www.livadia.org/missing/

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2004, 12:05:36 AM »
I have always said that we will never be sure which sister is missing until we find the remains of the one who is missing. It could really be Tatiana, Marie, or Anastasia who is missing from the grave - but that does not mean that the missing sister survived.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2004, 11:58:42 AM »
Quote
Hey guys, Livadia.org has a worked on a research paper with some others on this subject.
 
Here is the link:
http://www.livadia.org/missing/


I think Alia, Mikki & Lishka did a very well thought out web site.  
It's worth a visit.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Czarevna Colleen

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2005, 02:28:52 PM »
What differing opinions we all have!!!  (Of course, it just makes these discussions all the more interesting).  Thanks for the link, too.  I'll check it out.  In response to claims of Tatiana Nicolaievna surviving and Dr.  Michael Occleshaw's writings, I have my own views on the subject.  While I do believe that the House Of Windsor does know more than they have revealed about the fate of the Romanovs, and I do think it's possible that one or more of the family survived, I don't necessarily believe Occleshaw's theories.  The Lydd connection and grave of "Larissa Fedorovna" is interesting, and since the woman has no living relatives, I have to wonder if it would be permitted to exhume the grave and at least try to give them a DNA test at least to put that side of the story to rest.  There are many coincidences between Owen Tudor's first wife and the Grand Duchess Tatiana, and it is also an interesting point that three people who knew the Tudors positively identified a photograph of Tatiana as Larissa.  That aggravating photo from the Yorkshire newspaper "The Harrogate Harold" does add something to the mystery, since the picture cannot be improved due to the lack of negatives, and the fact that the person in question who resembles Tatiana is not named.

But some of the stories that Occleshaw collected around the time of the murders doesn't ring true.  For example, the testimony of Georgi Biron, supposed executioner of the family (funny, his name hasn't been mentioned in other accounts or books), about how the family was killed doesn't make sense, along with this bit of information:  Biron was quoted as saying, "Regarding Princess Tatiana Nicolaievna, she ran away or disappeared with the one of the Red Guards, long before this, perhaps even from Tobolsk."  Now, the photographs taken of the family while imprisoned in Tobolsk show Tatiana to be present in most of them, which doesn't necessarily mean anything, since we don't know exactly when the pictures were taken.  But, Pierre Guillard recalled seeing the rest of the children off to Ekaterinburg after the Czar, Czarina and Marie Nicolaievna had left, and he describes in clear and tearful detail as the children were trudging through the snow, and he saw Tatiana sink deeper and deeper into the mud, until she reached the transportation.  Also, the priests who performed the last religious service to the family on 14 July 1918 has claimed that the entire family was present.

There are many holes in the story regarding Meinertzhagen's diary account of rescuing one of the daughters, that many of you have mentioned here.  

I don't know what to think about the remains that were found, since so many have disputed the claim that they are the bodies of the Romanovs.  I have always believed that Anastasia surivived, but I am willing to keep an open mind.  There are just so many things about the accounts of the murders, disposal of the bodies, remains and survival claims that do not make sense or that are puzzling.  I hope one day it can all be put to rest. ??? :'( :-/

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2005, 03:39:55 PM »
As I have stated in other threads, I think if highly unlikely that anyone survived. The leap in logic between two missing bodies to anyone surviving is enormous. Of course it is possible that Tatiana's body is missing. That would not necessarily mean Tatiana survived!

Offline Lanie

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2005, 03:41:06 PM »
Quote
As I have stated in other threads, I think if highly unlikely that anyone survived. The leap in logic between two missing bodies to anyone surviving is enormous. Of course it is possible that Tatiana's body is missing. That would not necessarily mean Tatiana survived!


Here, here, Lisa!  Of course, people like to think that missing bodies = survived, I have no clue WHY...

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2005, 12:04:38 PM »
Quote
.... [in part]....
For example, the testimony of Georgi Biron, supposed executioner of the family (funny, his name hasn't been mentioned in other accounts or books), about how the family was killed doesn't make sense, along with this bit of information:  Biron was quoted as saying, "Regarding Princess Tatiana Nicolaievna, she ran away or disappeared with the one of the Red Guards, long before this, perhaps even from Tobolsk."
.....


Where did you read about Georgi  Biron?  You were talking about "stories that Occleshaw collected", was this one???

AGRBear

PS  As long as two bodies are missing, one can only speculate what happen to them.  To speculate doesn't mean just thinking of theories of where they were buried, speculation can, and does, include a possible escape for one or both children of Nicholas II.


PSS Joining a circus is exactly how one of my relatives did escape so who knows,  truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction.

PSSS  Could Occleshaw story about Tatiana been in error and  it was not Tatiana who ran away but Maria?  According to  King and Wilson,  it was Maria and one of the guards who seem to be having some kind of romance.  Evdience was because of a birthday cake and their absence....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2005, 12:32:39 PM »
In my opinion the skull of Tatiana is obviously hers - sadly so.

Offline Czarevna Colleen

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2005, 01:48:26 PM »
Yes, AGRBear, that quote about Tatiana running away with a Red Guard was from Occleshaw's book.  And yes, truth can be stranger than fiction.  It could be possible that one of the children survived.  That story about Marie is new too me, but of course, anything is possible. Do you know where I could get more info on the subject?  Thanks.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2005, 05:10:11 PM »
It was in Greg King and Penny Wilson's book :  THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS p. 244.  They talk about Maria's birthday when Maria and one of the guards  disapeared  for a time that afternoon.... He was sent away and vanished.....

I suggested she and the guard may not have returned. Did that get a lot of responses which told me I was ABSOLUTELY wrong on that speculation....  It is true, owever,  Nicholas II stopped writing in his diary for a time after this...  This is when Yurovsky jumps into the picture and takes over..... The others do mention Maria being present in the house in their diaries up to the night of 16 July....

Can anyone remember on what thread this was discussed earlier?

AGRBear

« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 09:52:38 PM by Alixz »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152