Author Topic: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna  (Read 88857 times)

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Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2006, 10:58:03 AM »
I've looked all over the darned survivors board and I still cannot find what I am looking for!  Are there any other threads on this "Larissa Feodorova" or Tudor or whatever last name she took?  If not, are there any websites out there with pictures and information.  This person is new to me and I really want to check it out!
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

Offline Rachael89

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2006, 11:14:42 AM »
Here's another thread on the claimants board about her:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=loonies;action=display;num=1117643820

She's one of the 'claimants' who never even claimed to be Tatiana, at least not publicly, her story is based on accounts of those who lived near her and assumptions on the part of Occleshaw.

Hope that helps

Rachael
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 09:53:57 PM by Alixz »
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Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2006, 02:34:44 PM »
Quote
Here's another thraed on the claimants board about her:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=loonies;action=display;num=1117643820

She's one of the 'claimants' who never even claimed to be Tatiana, at least not publiclly, her story is based on accounts of those who lived near her and assumptions on the part of Occleshaw.

Hope that helps

Rachael


Thanks!  For some reason it never entered my head to look in the claiments' site...  ::)
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2006, 06:33:29 AM »
Just a couple of queries on Phil Tomaseli's posting.

The Bristol F2 Fighter could have done it with refuelling stops and it was in service about the right time.

Alos I've looked Marguerite Lindsay up on the Ellis Island site and could not trace her at all - not at the age she should have been. I note that it may only cover arrivals to NY.

Tranwell

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2006, 10:06:07 AM »

. . . but of course, anything is possible.


This is the core fallacy that fuels these endless threads about the possible survival of Alexei or Anastasia or Maria or Tatiana.

Some things are, in fact, not possible.  It is not possible that the sun orbits the earth.  It is not possible that the earth has no atmosphere.  It is not possible that this post was put up without someone having written it. 

Other things are so unlikely as to be impossible in any practical sense.  This is especially the case when it would take a whole series of highly unlikely events all  to have occurred to generate the claimed outcome.  And the occurence of that series of highly unlikely events is exactly what every single one of these absurd survival stories depend upon . . . including, for starters, the ridiculous assumption that the Bolsheviks would have let anyone escape death on that night in July 1918.

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2006, 12:13:40 PM »
I can only agree. You could not have put it better. At the end, this survival business, while certainly interesting to discuss, is also rather silly. It doesn't make any sense to say that anyone survived, at all. But, it was such a lurid business with some of these survivors that it is VERY interesting to read about them and debate them. They were all colorful people, one way or the other.Tatiana didn't survive, nor did anybody else, but to some, anything is possible. ;)

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2006, 12:21:57 PM »
The references to Marguerite Lindsay's travels via Ellis Island are 1915 giving age 18 and residence Montreal, and 1923 giving age 27 and residence New York City, both consistent with the ML mentioned in Occleshaw's book which gives a 1918 age of 22.  Occleshaw says a search showed nobody of the right name and age anywhere.  He obviously didn't look hard enough.

And yes, a Bristol Fighter could have done it with refuelling stops but with a range of approx 300 miles (which I'm having checked) you must be able to show that there was capacity to organise these fuel dumps, explain how on earth such a small aircraft managed to fly the remaining 2,500 miles to Vladivostok, and quite why the British were so stupid as to send one small 2 seater aircraft to rescue a family of 7.

Over to you..........

Phil Tomaselli

Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2006, 08:34:21 PM »
The references to Marguerite Lindsay's travels via Ellis Island are 1915 giving age 18 and residence Montreal, and 1923 giving age 27 and residence New York City, both consistent with the ML mentioned in Occleshaw's book which gives a 1918 age of 22.  Occleshaw says a search showed nobody of the right name and age anywhere.  He obviously didn't look hard enough.

And yes, a Bristol Fighter could have done it with refuelling stops but with a range of approx 300 miles (which I'm having checked) you must be able to show that there was capacity to organise these fuel dumps, explain how on earth such a small aircraft managed to fly the remaining 2,500 miles to Vladivostok, and quite why the British were so stupid as to send one small 2 seater aircraft to rescue a family of 7.

Over to you..........

Phil Tomaselli

I've always wondered about that too, the part about sending a two-seater plane. It will be interesting to see that the speculation is about that because is never made sense.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2006, 02:16:25 AM »
Morning Phil,
Okay, well I assume your membership to the Ellis Island stuff must exceed mine - which is only guest status. I have put in every variation of the name and still come up with a blank.

There are , as you say, quid pro quos regarding any rescue theory and we must always face the cold splash of reality.  However, there remains a lot unsaid about the events in Ekaterinburg.  Why no photographs?  What was Preston up to?  Why so many mining engineers descending on Ekaterinburg at exactly the right time?  Can we accept the Yurovsky protocol - especially about burining two of the family? 

Whether we face it or not we live in a world of conspiracy.  A cover up society and that leads us to question - that is healthy.

Remeber it was the Marlborough that rescued dozens of the IF?   Remember the US attempt to rescue the hostages in Iran?  The attempts to rescue Mary Queen of Scots?

Rescues are a tradition and there is good reason to believe that something was being done for the IF.  Lied for example.   I see nothing in the literature that says there was absolutely nothing attempted.

So, we need to piece things together and graze our knees in the process - after all the higher powers hold all the cards - records, documents etc and do so in order to give history a particular hue. 

I don't know whether any of the family escaped or not but I am with those who want to run with it for a while and see what comes up.  For example as a direct result of Occleshaw's books, and I am a fan of them, I came across a post card of the Corsican ( the ship Lindsay etc were on) and it is from the same period e.g. 1920 ish.  On the back there is a pencil message in what I think may be Russian. It has been scribbled out in a deliberate attempt to obliterate the message and writing.  Okay so what's so interesting?  Well it is just this - the name Hauke is still readable and the date 18 9 1921.  The card coul have been acquired earlier and written on later.

I do not know where to go with this inquiry but I do know it is an interesting co incidence that it ties in loosely with Occleshaw.

Re the Bristol Fighter idea.  Well an aero plane is reported as having been seen over Ekaterinburg just as in the Vietnam War Britich aeroplanes were seen over the Mekong Delta but are the British likely to come clean on either issue - answer that one yourself. 

In essence the British are extremely good at covert stuff and in 1918 they had the men to do the job.  I think there is something in the idea that an attempt might have been made but it was bungled and this precipitated the murder of the family - but proving it against the establishment will be a steep hill to climb.


All the best,

Tranwell.

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2006, 05:44:10 AM »
Tranwell

I refer you to the article in the Sunday Times of Oct 15th 2006 (AGRBear and Ra Ra Rasputin have put links to this article elsewhere on the board).

Having had an absolutely tiny part in verifying some of the information to be presented in the forthcoming TV programme and having seen a very small part of the information Andrew Cook has gathered I think some very interesting stuff is about to be forthcoming.  I am not expecting a sudden revelation that a rescue was attempted (but I might be wrong as Alley is reputed to have claimed that he knew 2 of the children escaped) but certainly plans were being drawn up by some very professional secret service men.  A book will follow at some point next year.

I must point out that the Sunday Times story was unauthorised and not all its claims about the programme are accurate.

I'm interested in the Occleshaw book in part because of the man Nigel Watson who he met and interviewed.  Watson had various connections into the White Russian colony in London c1919 and was probably an SIS man in Constantinople in the early 1920's.  He was certainly an MI5 officer in the late 1920's and 1930's and kept an eye on various prominent White Russian suspects for them.

Phil Tomaselli 

Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2006, 05:59:26 AM »
Phil,

Yes, Watson and Huntington are certainly enigmas.  I have had a look on the net to see what I could find but drew a blank.  There was a history of the 3rd King's Own Hussars on Ebay but  it got away.  From the write up it seems the 3Rd became the 3rd Queens Hussars but I doubt that Watson or Huntington were mentioned.
Alley and Groves are interesting since they leak out just enough to keep us guessing.  The one very small item which escapes most people's notice and which interests me immensely is contained in the British  diplomat, forgot his name for the minute, who on reporting on the events in Ekaterinburg pencilled in the margin next to an entry concerning a 'commotion' in the early hours of 17th July the name 'Jones.'  Now I have tried to follow this up with the Foreign Office through my local MP but they even ignore him - and he has referred them to the question at least three  times.   
Now my theory centres on this man - Captain C.S. Digby - Jones and his involvement.   Occleshaw places him in Ekatereinburg at exactly the right time with a Captain Pablenko of the White Army.  Okay this is pure speculation I know but what if they tried a snatch. Not with the intention of getting them all away but just whatever they could at the time?   
Digby- Jones died in Russia a few months later according to the Army - of typhus.  But what if it was Nagant typhus?  There is mention in Occleshaw of Preston being called in to 'witness' what had happened on behalf of the international community - but why him?  Could it have been to identify Digby-Jones?   That seems more plausible to me.
Have you or anyone else tried to get hold of the full version of 'Rescuing the Czar' by William McGarry?  It goes under the name Smyth but it was definitely written by McGarry.

All the best,

Tranwell.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2006, 07:32:52 PM »
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 09:55:24 PM by Alixz »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2006, 08:19:24 PM »
Tranwell

I refer you to the article in the Sunday Times of Oct 15th 2006 (AGRBear and Ra Ra Rasputin have put links to this article elsewhere on the board).

Having had an absolutely tiny part in verifying some of the information to be presented in the forthcoming TV programme and having seen a very small part of the information Andrew Cook has gathered I think some very interesting stuff is about to be forthcoming.  I am not expecting a sudden revelation that a rescue was attempted (but I might be wrong as Alley is reputed to have claimed that he knew 2 of the children escaped) but certainly plans were being drawn up by some very professional secret service men.  A book will follow at some point next year.

I must point out that the Sunday Times story was unauthorised and not all its claims about the programme are accurate.

I'm interested in the Occleshaw book in part because of the man Nigel Watson who he met and interviewed.  Watson had various connections into the White Russian colony in London c1919 and was probably an SIS man in Constantinople in the early 1920's.  He was certainly an MI5 officer in the late 1920's and 1930's and kept an eye on various prominent White Russian suspects for them.

Phil Tomaselli 

See Romanov's Russia for the article:

http://agrbear.hyperboards.com/index.php?action=view_topic&topic_id=129

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2006, 03:48:04 AM »
Tranwell

I'm afraid that Occleshaw didn't do too good a job in seeking out papers relating to Digby-Jones as there are plenty at the National Archives if you know where to look.  His army service record has also been released (subsequent to "The Romanov Conspiracies") and everything points to his being sent to Ekaterinberg to liaise with the Czechs.  He certainly met up with them after their capture of Ekaterinberg so can't have been shot during the massacre of the family, which you seem to have been suggesting.  Another researcher who has looked at this for Shay McNeal has suggested to me that the typhus was actually cirrhosis brought on by alcohol abuse but quite where he got that from I'm not sure.  Digby-Jones (referred to as Jones) gets a couple of mentions in Preston's book so his presence can't have been too secret.

One thing that might be useful would be for the papers of other Consular officials at Ekaterinberg to be located.  Preston was senior Consul, but there were others, French, Swedish and American at least but of course their papers aren't at TNA.

all the best

Phil Tomaselli

Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2006, 07:50:54 PM »
Phil,

Yes, Watson and Huntington are certainly enigmas.  I have had a look on the net to see what I could find but drew a blank.  There was a history of the 3rd King's Own Hussars on Ebay but  it got away.  From the write up it seems the 3Rd became the 3rd Queens Hussars but I doubt that Watson or Huntington were mentioned.
Alley and Groves are interesting since they leak out just enough to keep us guessing.  The one very small item which escapes most people's notice and which interests me immensely is contained in the British  diplomat, forgot his name for the minute, who on reporting on the events in Ekaterinburg pencilled in the margin next to an entry concerning a 'commotion' in the early hours of 17th July the name 'Jones.'  Now I have tried to follow this up with the Foreign Office through my local MP but they even ignore him - and he has referred them to the question at least three  times.   
Now my theory centres on this man - Captain C.S. Digby - Jones and his involvement.   Occleshaw places him in Ekatereinburg at exactly the right time with a Captain Pablenko of the White Army.  Okay this is pure speculation I know but what if they tried a snatch. Not with the intention of getting them all away but just whatever they could at the time?   
Digby- Jones died in Russia a few months later according to the Army - of typhus.  But what if it was Nagant typhus?  There is mention in Occleshaw of Preston being called in to 'witness' what had happened on behalf of the international community - but why him?  Could it have been to identify Digby-Jones?   That seems more plausible to me.
Have you or anyone else tried to get hold of the full version of 'Rescuing the Czar' by William McGarry?  It goes under the name Smyth but it was definitely written by McGarry.

All the best,

Tranwell.

Yes. I have a xeroxed copy of that book and it does not have a U.S. copyright. So I would be happy to post it here, with the permission of the FA or send copies to those who are interested.
Lexi
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"