Author Topic: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna  (Read 110068 times)

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Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2006, 04:13:29 AM »
Thank you to AGBear for the link to book:  Rescuing the Czar.  Also  to Lexi4 for the offer of zerox copy.  I now have access to the whole script for the first time.

What strikes me most about this script is just how good a novel, perhaps in the style of Buchan, would derive from it.  Okay then I'll do it!

Second, this is McGarry okay.    Who else would be art historian, linguist, classical scholar and courtier all in one - and with that special American connection.  Yup, this guy does run pretty wild with the idea of an escape - perhaps the next James Bond movie?

Now the interesting bits:

Well the amount of circumstantial detail is amazing.   He must have been to the Ipatiev House and I suspect he was well immersed in the personalities  holding forth on different points at the time.  The tunnel idea does tie in with the mining engineers but when the site was excavated for the Cathedral of the Holy Blood there did not appear any sight of one.

So just what had McGarry got in mind?  Was he 'plotting' for a novel?   Are there hidden codes suspended in the allusions?  Was it an aide memoir?   Was he alluding to something else - a matter of conscience - removal of family jewels etc?  Was it just a prank?

Now of course there is one way to settle the matter once and for all isn't there?    Does anyone have the actual diaries?   (I doubt it!)

The acid test is I think the fact that the I. F. disappeared so completely - notwithstanding the cranks!  If they did escape as a whole then surely other more recent records and diaries would have surfaced - so, no, the sensible response is that McGarry was up to something else. 

I do not rule out a single escape, maybe two, since the 'centre of gravity' reasoning tilts that way - Alley, Groves, Bibikov et al.  but the whole family/  Hmnnnnnnnnnnn!

Unlike many though I find the story fascinating and I've always had a taste for the mystereious.

Thanks again


Tranwell.

 

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2006, 02:42:55 PM »
Tranwell

I'm afraid In rather suspect that the circumstantial detail is derived  from newspaper reports by journalists such as Ackerman, and there seems to be a lot of using of common Russian names, rather as if a foreigner chose to write about a group of Englishmen and called them Smith, Jones, Brown and Green.  He'd be bound to hit on a few people with those names connected with almost any enterprise.

Still, "Rescuing" remains the only book to make me laugh out loud in the British Library reading room.

Phil T

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2006, 06:39:52 PM »
The best book to read in reguards to Rescuing the Tsar is Shay McNeals book  PLOTS TO SAVE THE TSAR.  McNeal  apparently agrees with you that there is more to Rescuing the Tsar than just someone who wanted to write pure fiction.

It may prove that the author wasn't knowledgeable about the ex-Tsarvich Alexis health in late June and early July and so the actions the author has  Alexsis doing in the book Rescuing the Tsar may be what Phil finds humorous.  Phil?

AGRBear
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Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2006, 03:59:43 AM »
Phil,
Yes, I follow what you are saying and agree that there were a lot of rumours and news items, many of which were little more than speculation, going around at the time and MacGarry may well have been over reliant on them.  I also take your earlier point about Digby-Jones who as the reports say died of cirrosis which may have been a complication of typhus.  Also his death being reported much later than the supposed demise of the IF.  Still if the SIS can go to great lengths to mount a rescue then I am sure it is well within their capabilities to fabricate whatever records they need to present an interpretation to the public.
Did you ever see the programme which alleged that Rasputin was given the coup de grace by a British agent?  When it comes down to the standard means, motivation and opportunity tests I think there is plenty of scope for speculation in both cases.

Now can I ask what your take is on the Syvorotka diary.   Unlike the Fox diary i find it plausible and grounded in the trivial human minutiae that people often include in diary accounts.  The ending puzzles me though. There is an old saying that the more truth you tell in a lie the more it seems like the truth.  Now there is a lot of truth in the Syvorotka rendition and his account of the final night has a ring of truth about it that does not contradict other accounts even the Yurovsky protocol if you go with that as the final word on the matter.  However, the part that I find intriguing is the part about the two Red Guards that were apparently killed in the Syvorotka account and the diarist's insistence that they were the only killings that took place at Ipatiev.  He was adamant on this point.  So, either the IF were not killed as Yurovsky has testified or they were taken elsewhere and killed - or even 'rescued.'  In either case the Syvorotka account is evidence that all was not as history would have us believe.

All the best,

Tranwell

Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2006, 01:49:20 AM »
Just a point of clarification on last post.

The insistence on only two killings of guards was in the codicil to Syvorotka's diary and not his own personal testimony.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2006, 09:55:33 AM »
Phil,
Yes, I follow what you are saying and agree that there were a lot of rumours and news items, many of which were little more than speculation, going around at the time and MacGarry may well have been over reliant on them.  I also take your earlier point about Digby-Jones who as the reports say died of cirrosis which may have been a complication of typhus.  Also his death being reported much later than the supposed demise of the IF.  Still if the SIS can go to great lengths to mount a rescue then I am sure it is well within their capabilities to fabricate whatever records they need to present an interpretation to the public.
Did you ever see the programme which alleged that Rasputin was given the coup de grace by a British agent?  When it comes down to the standard means, motivation and opportunity tests I think there is plenty of scope for speculation in both cases.

Now can I ask what your take is on the Syvorotka diary.   Unlike the Fox diary i find it plausible and grounded in the trivial human minutiae that people often include in diary accounts.  The ending puzzles me though. There is an old saying that the more truth you tell in a lie the more it seems like the truth.  Now there is a lot of truth in the Syvorotka rendition and his account of the final night has a ring of truth about it that does not contradict other accounts even the Yurovsky protocol if you go with that as the final word on the matter.  However, the part that I find intriguing is the part about the two Red Guards that were apparently killed in the Syvorotka account and the diarist's insistence that they were the only killings that took place at Ipatiev.  He was adamant on this point.  So, either the IF were not killed as Yurovsky has testified or they were taken elsewhere and killed - or even 'rescued.'  In either case the Syvorotka account is evidence that all was not as history would have us believe.

All the best,

Tranwell


Lordtranwell,
I have not read  the Syvorotka diary. Do you know how I can get my hands on a copy?
Thanks,
Lexi
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2006, 02:03:35 PM »
Bear/Tranwell/Lexi

Looking back, and having consulted my copy of "Rescuing" I now recall that the part of the whole book that made me laugh out loud is (p248 my copy) the detailed description, in the Syvorotka diary, of Nicholas and Alexandra leaving Tobolsk by steamer, leaving all 4 girls behind........................

Utterly at variance with the accepted facts and also done in front of "a crowd of people", not one of whom ever came forward to say that they saw the event.  Keen as I am go give anyone who questions the accepted version a hearing I have to say that this was the one thing that convinced me that the book is utter hogwash.  The rest of the book is at least questionable, if not pure melodrama.

Phil Tomaselli

Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2006, 05:10:54 PM »
Bear/Tranwell/Lexi

Looking back, and having consulted my copy of "Rescuing" I now recall that the part of the whole book that made me laugh out loud is (p248 my copy) the detailed description, in the Syvorotka diary, of Nicholas and Alexandra leaving Tobolsk by steamer, leaving all 4 girls behind........................

Utterly at variance with the accepted facts and also done in front of "a crowd of people", not one of whom ever came forward to say that they saw the event.  Keen as I am go give anyone who questions the accepted version a hearing I have to say that this was the one thing that convinced me that the book is utter hogwash.  The rest of the book is at least questionable, if not pure melodrama.

Phil Tomaselli

Now I would call that high drama. I haven't read rescuing yet. It is next. I just recently got a xeroxed copy.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2006, 03:04:56 AM »
Good point about the patronym.   I suppose we tend to see it only within the Romanovs because that is what we have been reading.  However, if a child was born outside marriage i.e. of a mistress - and there were plenty of those - then might it not have been an attempt to redress an injustice?  I feel sure that Larissa / Owen wanted to emphasise this for some reason.  If the pork butcher tale was true then should it have been Larissa Adolph.....?
I think we can deduce that at least she may have been of Russian descent..... why the bold assertion on the tombstone?  The 3rd Hussars have ditched Owen and yet here we see him boldly linking her to his regiment.  I do take your words of caution but for me the evidence of the tombstone itself is compelling.....there is a lot more to this wonderful couple that we know.
On another point.... the photograph of the girl who may have been Tatiana - in Occleshaw - and reproduced earlier in this discussion has been ringed.  But has any one esle noted that there is a feint ring around another girl in that photograph?  In my copy there is certainly a second girl ringed - so do we know which one is the Tatiana candidate?
Christmas wishes to all.

Tranwell

Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2006, 02:12:33 PM »
Phil or Lordtranwell,
Could either of you tell me how to get more information about the  Syvorotka diary?
Thank you.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2007, 05:17:03 AM »
Hi,
Yes, please look back to an earlier message on this topic and you will see a link to web site where the diary can be found as part of the 'Rescuing the Czar' McGarry / Smyth document.  If you still can't find it I have a copy printed - but you should have no trouble getting the web site - courtesy of Lexi I think.
All the best,
Tranwell

Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2007, 08:29:34 AM »
Hi!
Happy New Year!
I found the link fine. Thank you. Owen and Larissa were indeed mysterious and I would certainly like to learn more. It is interesting to me that, prior to marrying Larrisa, Owen was flat broke. Yet, as a couple, they lived well. I wonder where they got their income? The tombstone has me curious as well.
Lots of questions, I wonder if we will ever have answers.
Lexi
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2007, 02:34:28 AM »
Can we stop knocking Occleshaw?
I don't think anyone else has provided as much pertinent discussion material as Occleshaw and I think he would be the first to accept that his theories need revision in the light of more recent discoveries.  I am sure he is quite right when he protests at the contempt the British Government has for genuine scholarship and their downright obstruction in allowing full disclosure of all they shouls disclose.  Mangold and Summers made the same point and my own attempts to get the Foreign Office to release papers, through my M.P., support this 'obfuscation'  attempt.  If the government stop 'weeding' then we can get to the bottom of this matter sooner. 
'No Resting Place for a Romanov,'   the highly derivative spin off of Occleshaw's book / s  mentions that Larissa's grave was disturbed at the time of the IF's internment at the Peter and Paul Cathedral so would exhumation prove anything?  Is it possible  that the remains of Larissa have already been replaced with other remains?  If the government would stop vasscilating and let us have all they have got then I am sure we would stop being conspiracy theorists but all the time things are being done which for my money suggest something is being covered up and I want to lknow what!

Just a note on the many contributions and different opinions I read on this site: I think it is great to read so many different points of view which are all treated in a scholastic manner and respected as valuable contributions to the debate.

Tranwell

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2007, 04:11:08 AM »
Has there been a post deleted here?  Suddenly Occleshaw is being defended against an accusation I can't see being made recently, if at all.

Phil Tomaselli

Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2007, 04:13:24 AM »
Hello Phil,
Whoops!   I contribute to several parts of this site and sometimes I just think Occleshaw gets bad press.  Nothing missiing I think - just me putting a general comment on a particular discussion.

All the best,

Tranwell.