Author Topic: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna  (Read 121862 times)

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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2007, 03:00:39 PM »
On revisiting certain files that Occleshaw quoted in his book I was delighted to discover an official note in file  WO 106/1237 stating that "A copy of document serial 799 missing from this piece - reference NR 1042 dated 9 February 1919, From Colonel Blair Vladivostock to War Office re Murder of Royal family has been located in FO 371/3977" dated 22 July 1994.  Another missing document located................................

Phil Tomaselli

Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2007, 08:13:19 PM »
Phil,
Did you see the actual document?
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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2007, 02:26:57 AM »
No, I haven't yet seen the document but, given I've located others he says were missing I don't doubt it's there.  Next time at the National Archives I'll endeavour to dig it out.

Phil T

Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2007, 06:03:36 PM »
I wonder why he would say those files were missing. I can only come up with a couple of explanations:
1. He didn't look real well.
2. They were missing when he looked.
3. High drama.
Lexi
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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2007, 05:39:57 AM »
There are several explanations.  Some of the documents are missing from the files in which he looked BUT duplicates exist in other files - HMG, like any bureacracy, copied in all and sundry so a telegram missing in a War Office file can turn up in a Foreign Office one.  Sometimes I suspect he didn't look too well or misunderstood the original reference so looked in the wrong place (you have to convert the old Foreign Office reference to a new National Archive one to get the original document and it's easy to make a mistake).  Sometimes he just doesn't look hard enough he says that there is verly little material from Thomas Presto, Ekaterinberg Consul, n in the files - in fact there's quite a lot of material, some of findable under "Platinum" because Preston was tasked by the War Office to keep an eye on Russian platinum mining.

Presumably also Preston burned a lot of documents (you do this automatically in a consulate in a war zone I assume).

Sometimes I think he just doesn't understand what he's looking at.  He has a new book out "Dances in Deep Shadows" in which there are a couple of real schoolboy howlers, but I won't bore you with theses as they aren't pertinent to the thread.

Phil T

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2007, 11:11:44 AM »
When doing research,  I am contantly at a lost as to the logic behind some of the methods used in placing articles and information under titles.  Like Phil said:

Quote
... he says that there is verly little material from Thomas Presto, Ekaterinberg Consul, n in the files - in fact there's quite a lot of material, some of findable under "Platinum" because Preston was tasked by the War Office to keep an eye on Russian platinum mining. 

I am not making any kind of declaration that I have a better file system.  Looking at the piles of suff on my desk tells otherwise.  That's why someone invented computers.....  Ug,  another failure on my part because I didn't and continue not to  take the time to list each topic in the articles I have or will  save....    Most  articles or data  [reports, etc.]  deal with a number of topics and the person placing the data so where does one place it in the huge archives?  Under "A"  or  "D" ....?   

I have no idea how hard  Occleshaw looked for information.  Or if on those particular days the information wasn't there...  Sometimes that just happens. 

Sometimes,  in the middle of the night,  I'll wake up and realize I've been looking in all the wrong places and am feeling a little foolish for having missed the obvious.

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Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2007, 06:15:43 PM »
Thank you Phil & Bear. That put it in perspective for me. Once I thought about it and read you posts, I realized how difficult it can be to find information unless you really know where to look. It would not have entered my head to look under platinum.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2007, 03:00:21 AM »
The joys of serendipity!  It never occurred to me to look for Ekaterinberg material under Platinum, I just stumbled across some index cards on the subject and remembered that Preston mentioned it somewhere.  You have to try and get into the mind set of the people compiling the records and why they might index them the way they did.

An even bigger problem comes with sorting and indexing your own research.  I have a filing cabinet full of files marked "Ekaterinberg Consulate", "Rasputin", "British Intelligence Mission", "Naval Intelligence", "Captain Cromie's Organisation", "Murmansk Military Intelligence", "RAF in N Russia", "MI5", "SIS in Russia 1919", "Finland" etc.  As one discovered document can cross several files it can be a nightmare (a) deciding which file to put it in and (b) cross referencing it with the others.  I've now moved to digital imaging but this only makes it worse..............

Phil T

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2007, 04:26:13 AM »
Here is the text of the "missing" document as located in FO 371/3977A:



From: -               Col Blair, Vladivostock
To:-               War Office

                  Despatched: 15.45 9.2.19
                  Received 16.00 10.2.19

N.R.  1042  Feb 9th

         Following dated Feb 5th Received from General Knox


      It is shown by aditional evidence regarding the murder of the Imperial Family at Ekaterinburg that in the local Sovyet there are two parties, one wishing to save the family and the other headed by 5 Jews, of whom two Safarov and Vainen, determined on the murder, had accompanied Lenin on his journey across Germany.  The Central Sovyet at Moscow wished to send the family to Nesvij in ?West/WhiteRussia.  Between the 8th and 12th the Russian Guard on the house wasremoved, the pretext being that they had stolen 79,000 roubles.  A house guard of 13 men, viz. 3 Jews, Yurovski, Zaipoint and one other and 10 Letts replaced them,.  A criminal called Medvedyev who had been convicted in 1905 of a murder and arson and in 1911 of outraging a girl of five commanded the guard outside the house.  At 2 a.m. prompt the prisoners were awakened and toldto preparefor a journey.  An hour later they were called down to the lower room.  The sentence of theSovyet ending with the words “And so your life has come to and end” was read out by Yurovsky.  The Emperor said “I am ready”.  It is stated by an eyewitness who hassince died that theEmpressand her two elsest daughters made the sign of the cross.  The two younger Grand Duchesses fainted.  .  The man Mevyedev and the house guard carried out the massacre with revolvers.  In addition to the seven members of the Imperial family, in this room were murdered the Doctor Botkin, the cook, the valet and the maid.  The cook’s nephew, a boy of 14 was spared.  The bodies were thrown down the shaft of a coal mine.  Orders were sent to Apalaevsk the same morning to murder the party there and this was carried out by theRussians.

      Some eight tons of personal belongings of the family are being sent down to Vladivisotock.  Some of these things are of great national as well as material value.  On the body of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth for instance, was found the Holy Picture before which the Emperor prayed when about to abdicate.  This is stdded with precius stones and is valuedat several hundred thousand roubles.  Admiral K. said that if possible he would like them for greater security to be placed on board theKent.

02. Copies to :- M I 1a
MI1a copies to:-    CIGS
         DMI
         MIR & b & a
         MI6 b & L
         DMC
         MO5 a & b
         MOX
         FO
         DCIGS
         MI1 & a

 Please note that the MI6 noted as being copied in is not the MI6 we know today (which was then known as MI1c).

The file that accompanies this file, FO 371/3977B contains a (presumably much abridged) version of the Sokolov investigation given to the National Archive from "an official source" in 1958.  Interesting to see some of the photographs "in the flesh" as it were.

I must have looked at this years ago without appreciating the significance but nice to revisit.

Phil Tomaselli

Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2007, 07:08:23 PM »
Thank you Phil. That was interesting.
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2007, 08:53:37 PM »
... The sentence of theSovyet ending with the words “And so your life has come to and end” was read out by Yurovsky.  The Emperor said “I am ready”. 

... In addition to the seven members of the Imperial family, in this room were murdered the Doctor Botkin, the cook, the valet and the maid.  The cook’s nephew, a boy of 14 was spared.  The bodies were thrown down the shaft of a coal mine. 

Phil Tomaselli

Hi Phil,

Many thanks for posting this document.  :)

The two items that I have extracted from that document provide significant information. The first offers a completely different understanding as to what Nikolai's final words may have been. To state "I am ready" rather than the more familiar "What?" places his last moments in a new light if the accuracy of the eyewitness's deposition is to be believed on this point.

Furthermore the first extract does not identify Yurovsky as being Nikolai's assassin which is perplexing.

From the second extract - it is clear that the unnamed eyewitness stated that all the I. F. were murdered and that no one left that room alive except the murderers.

Margarita
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 08:56:56 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2007, 03:40:22 AM »
It is an interesting document, if only because it shows that the British Military Mission were keeping a close eye on the murder investigation.  It would be interesting to know whether this information came from Sokolov or from one of the other investigations.  Knox, though he spoke fluent Russian, having been Military Attache at Petrograd, was naturally inclined to believe what the military told him rather than any civilian, however competent and informed.

I've tried checking the two Bolsheviks mentioned, Safarov & Vainen, but while there's plenty of confirmation that Safarov crossed Germany with Lenin andwas connected to theEkaterinberg Soviet I can find no mention of Vainen in any of the reference books I've checked.  Does anyone know if he existed?

Phil T


Offline Belochka

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2007, 05:44:09 AM »
It is an interesting document, if only because it shows that the British Military Mission were keeping a close eye on the murder investigation.  It would be interesting to know whether this information came from Sokolov or from one of the other investigations.  Knox, though he spoke fluent Russian, having been Military Attache at Petrograd, was naturally inclined to believe what the military told him rather than any civilian, however competent and informed.

I've tried checking the two Bolsheviks mentioned, Safarov & Vainen, but while there's plenty of confirmation that Safarov crossed Germany with Lenin andwas connected to theEkaterinberg Soviet I can find no mention of Vainen in any of the reference books I've checked.  Does anyone know if he existed?

Phil T

Frankly I am not surprised that the British were keen observers of these particular events.

I will see what I can find out about Vainen and perhaps one of will be successful?

Margarita
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Offline lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #73 on: February 03, 2007, 07:12:38 PM »
... The sentence of theSovyet ending with the words “And so your life has come to and end” was read out by Yurovsky.  The Emperor said “I am ready”. 

... In addition to the seven members of the Imperial family, in this room were murdered the Doctor Botkin, the cook, the valet and the maid.  The cook’s nephew, a boy of 14 was spared.  The bodies were thrown down the shaft of a coal mine. 

Phil Tomaselli

Hi Phil,

Many thanks for posting this document.  :)

The two items that I have extracted from that document provide significant information. The first offers a completely different understanding as to what Nikolai's final words may have been. To state "I am ready" rather than the more familiar "What?" places his last moments in a new light if the accuracy of the eyewitness's deposition is to be believed on this point.

Furthermore the first extract does not identify Yurovsky as being Nikolai's assassin which is perplexing.

From the second extract - it is clear that the unnamed eyewitness stated that all the I. F. were murdered and that no one left that room alive except the murderers.

Margarita



I noticed that Nicholas's last words were different as well. They are not consistent with other accounts, which I find curious.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Belochka

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Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
« Reply #74 on: February 03, 2007, 08:03:09 PM »
... The sentence of theSovyet ending with the words “And so your life has come to and end” was read out by Yurovsky.  The Emperor said “I am ready”. 

Phil Tomaselli


The two items that I have extracted from that document provide significant information. The first offers a completely different understanding as to what Nikolai's final words may have been. To state "I am ready" rather than the more familiar "What?" places his last moments in a new light if the accuracy of the eyewitness's deposition is to be believed on this point.

Furthermore the first extract does not identify Yurovsky as being Nikolai's assassin which is perplexing.

Margarita


I noticed that Nicholas's last words were different as well. They are not consistent with other accounts, which I find curious.

Which goes down to the credibility of this early English communication vs. the alleged latter account given by Yurovsky to Pokrovsky.

I am surprised that no one else has questioned this anomaly.

Margarita


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