Author Topic: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson  (Read 152342 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #225 on: January 15, 2011, 07:57:12 PM »
A revolution is not a trial, and I'm afraid due process has very little to do with it.

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #226 on: January 15, 2011, 08:02:51 PM »
Quote
I'm afraid due process has very little to do with it

Of course not, when the criminals are the ones calling the shots.  The Bolsheviks were all thugs and murderers, not a decent human being among them.  The Russian people paid a terrible price for putting those murderers in power.
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #227 on: January 15, 2011, 08:33:52 PM »
Mr King, I wish to know if you could explain in your book the "Felix Dassel' case", in your book. This very story was still confusing for me, even if  I never believed Anna Anderson beeing AN, party because every traumatical death of famous people almost automatically call such an answer as claimant. Even in such a family as mine (nothing famous, I should say) we have our legende, our claim. Is seems to be a psychological reflex of self-defense before death or something else difficult.

Matushka, we take four or five pages to deconstruct the Dassel legend, but the short answer is that the legend relies almost solely on uncorroborated information, and omissions and incorrect information regarding the circumstances of Dassel's meeting with AA.  For example, AA's recognition of "Mandrifolie" as one of MN's nicknames would be far more compelling if anyone other than Dassel had ever recorded it.  And far from not knowing who her intended visitor was, the night before they met, Maria Baumgartner prepared AA to meet her guest by going over with her a commemorative album of MN and AN's hospital at Tsarskoye Selo.

Other pieces of information had been gleaned by AA beforehand:  She knew about the medallions given as souvenirs to the officers who recovered at MN and AN's hospital because she had seen one the year before and had had it explained to her extensively.  She corrected Dassel's "test" of placing the billiard table on the wrong floor of the hospital -- but she had a commemorative album with photos and captions.  All examples of Dassel's "recognition" can be explained away in similar fashion.

And of course, Dassel was a frequent visitor to the von Kleist apartment in Berlin in 1923 -- while AA was in residence.
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #228 on: January 15, 2011, 08:52:05 PM »
The Bolsheviks were all thugs and murderers, not a decent human being among them.  The Russian people paid a terrible price for putting those murderers in power.

This is not the thread to go into it, but I'm afraid the Russian people have paid a terrible price for bowing their heads to autocratic authority since at least the time of Ivan III.

You should take a look at some of the edicts of Peter the Great regarding conscription into state service, forced education with curricula established by the crown, central economic planning, and the subjugation of the church to state control with the Holy Synod.  And take a look at the numbers of people who died at forced labor during his reign.  Or look at the expansion of serfdom or the establishment of the Pale under the "enlightened" Catherine the Great.

As for due process, check out the "liberal tsar" Alexander II's personal overriding of jury verdicts and judges' sentences when they did not suit him.

The soviet era was in many ways just a particularly rocky run in the river on which Russian history has been sailing for centuries . . . and is still doing under Putin & Co.

(And the "Russian people" did very little to put those murdering Bolsheviks in power.  In fact, they had a rather messy civil war over it.  You might want to read up on one very nasty night at the telephone exchange in late 1917.)


___________

And okay, mods . . . I'll get back on topic.  Thanks.  
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 08:55:50 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline RealAnastasia

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1890
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #229 on: January 15, 2011, 11:23:16 PM »
Mr King, I wish to know if you could explain in your book the "Felix Dassel' case", in your book. This very story was still confusing for me, even if  I never believed Anna Anderson beeing AN, party because every traumatical death of famous people almost automatically call such an answer as claimant. Even in such a family as mine (nothing famous, I should say) we have our legende, our claim. Is seems to be a psychological reflex of self-defense before death or something else difficult.

Matushka, we take four or five pages to deconstruct the Dassel legend, but the short answer is that the legend relies almost solely on uncorroborated information, and omissions and incorrect information regarding the circumstances of Dassel's meeting with AA.  For example, AA's recognition of "Mandrifolie" as one of MN's nicknames would be far more compelling if anyone other than Dassel had ever recorded it.  And far from not knowing who her intended visitor was, the night before they met, Maria Baumgartner prepared AA to meet her guest by going over with her a commemorative album of MN and AN's hospital at Tsarskoye Selo.

Other pieces of information had been gleaned by AA beforehand:  She knew about the medallions given as souvenirs to the officers who recovered at MN and AN's hospital because she had seen one the year before and had had it explained to her extensively.  She corrected Dassel's "test" of placing the billiard table on the wrong floor of the hospital -- but she had a commemorative album with photos and captions.  All examples of Dassel's "recognition" can be explained away in similar fashion.

And of course, Dassel was a frequent visitor to the von Kleist apartment in Berlin in 1923 -- while AA was in residence.




Hello, Penny:

                                I’ve read about AA being “warned” about Dassel’s visit to Seeon…but the detail I never understood is why he went there in order to “recognize” the claimant if he had seen her several times at the Von Kleists’s flan, in 1923. I’ve read Dassels’s account to his visit to Seeon Castle and it seems as if he was watching at AA’s face for the first time of his life. It wasn’t the case…Isn’t it that weird?

RealAnastasia.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 11:25:45 PM by RealAnastasia »

Offline RealAnastasia

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1890
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #230 on: January 15, 2011, 11:27:25 PM »
Sorry, I meant : "...the Von Kleists FLAT" , not FLAN  ::) , as it appears in my message above. My PC wouldn't allow me to make corrections if the message is too long.

RealAnastasia.

Offline RealAnastasia

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1890
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #231 on: January 15, 2011, 11:30:06 PM »
Well, in any event, it was a very good book, well written, well researhed.  My hat is off to both of you.

There was only one thing that bothered me, and it is minor.  I was uncomfortable with the repeated use of the term "execution" in reference to what happened in Ekaterinburg on July 17, 1918.  Execution made it sound like due process was followed, that there had been a trial in which the Romanovs could speak in their own defense.  Of course, no such event occurred (although I understand Trotsky was pushing for such a trial).

What happened on July 17, 1918 in that cellar was not an execution, it was cold blooded murder.  No more, no less.

I share your opinion about the term: "execution". It was a murder. And I wrote a lot of times about why I don't like to write or say that the Imperial Family was "executed". Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI were executed. Charles I of England was executed. The Romanovs were murdered.

RealAnastasia.

Offline Greg_King

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 588
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
    • Atlantis Magazine
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #232 on: January 16, 2011, 02:35:29 AM »
The problem is that none of the absolute terminology is one hundred percent accurate. For me, at least, it breaks down like this:

Assassination doesn't really work in any way, as it is suggestive of something that did not happen

Execution is a fitting term applied to Nicholas-it was in the middle of the revolution, it was a political act, it was carried out by revolutionaries in a direct effort to achieve both vengeance AND to remove any possibility that he could return to the throne, and it followed considerable meetings in which it was discussed-no matter if the outcome of those meetings was largely determined in advance.

This same principle applies perhaps to Alexei-as heir to the throne, he represented the old regime and a continued threat, and whatever political principles infused the Russian Revolution they certainly took into account the desire to erase the old regime and the possibility of its return.

The "execution" argument applies in somewhat the same way to Alexandra, though less than with her son and certainly less than with her husband. She was perceived as having had a major political role in the ruin of the country, so as with Nicholas and Alexei her death combined both vengeance with political retribution. In her case she was probably killed more out of animosity as she certainly represented no threat that the dynasty would continue.

But then when you get to the Grand Duchess execution doesn't fit. It can be argued they fell in the same political retribution that ensnared their parents and brother, but I am personally more comfortable with simply asserting that Olga, Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia were murdered.

This take may offend some, but it's a more nuanced view of the factors that led to the events in the Ipatiev House. Nicholas, to me, was clearly executed, and I think this is also the most correct way to describe the death of Alexei and, less certainly, that of Alexandra. But the four Grand Duchesses would have been murdered since their deaths served no political purpose
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 10:15:19 AM by Alixz »

Offline Dominic_Albanese

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #233 on: January 16, 2011, 10:13:30 AM »
I would take slight exception with the murder of the Grand Duchesses not having any political purposes...  Killing Olga, even though according to the Pauline Laws she couldn't inherit the throne, added to the chaos of no clear Romanov being able to remount the throne.  In the middle of the revolution, I could see the white army surrounding her as figure head and perhaps heir - especially after Nicholas, Alexi and Michael were dead.  I don't think there was any love of Kirill and she while a romantic figure, the rest of the family might have surrounded this smart and sensitive girl.  Complete conjecture, I agree but a possibility I believe none the less.  And I am sure it factored into the thinking of the thugs who decided all their fate.

dca

Offline Dominic_Albanese

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #234 on: January 16, 2011, 10:16:21 AM »
And I should have added, I'm about 2/3's way through this book.  As usual Greg and Penny have taken a complex subject and brought it to the masses with much thought and analysis.  This book is a keeper and a must have for anyone who wants to truly understand the web that surrounded this bizzare women.  Thanks to both of them and here's hoping that there is another Romanov book swimming around in their minds as we speak...

dca

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #235 on: January 16, 2011, 10:26:27 AM »
My two kopecks on the question:

"Execution" means to put to death according to a legal tribunal's orders pursuant to the law.
"Murder" is the intentional killing of another person.

While the killing of Nicholas and perhaps Alexei was for political purposes, to prevent the Whites from rallying behind the Emperor, it was not really done in accordance with any law or after a trial on the evidence.  Moscow wanted him dead. The Ekaterinburg Soviet made that happen.  They killed everyone so that nobody would be left alive to tell the tale. To me, it was murder of them all. A State ordered execution is almost always a public event, not a well kept secret hidden intentionally.  An unlawful MURDER however, is indeed a well kept secret hidden intentionally.

I use Murder, as that more accurately, IMO, reflects what happened.


Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #236 on: January 16, 2011, 11:31:55 AM »
I agree, it was murder.  It was, for all intents and purposes, a hit.  Moscow (Lenin) was the Mafia Don that ordered the hit and the Ekaterinburg Soviet was the hit man that pulled the trigger.
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #237 on: January 16, 2011, 01:53:50 PM »
What if we just say they were splattered and let it go at that?

It avoids debate about motives, it describes what happened to all of them, and it entertains me.

By the way, there were more people killed in that room for non-political reasons than just a few pretty young women.  There was, for instance, a father of two and some people who were there out of personal loyalty rather than by virtue of having been born to an exceedingly privileged life where lesser humans were expected to bow and scrape before you.

aleksandr pavlovich

  • Guest
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #238 on: January 16, 2011, 02:38:08 PM »
Ah, "Tsarfan," relatively to your "an exceedingly priviledged life" (tounge in cheek),  perhaps you missed the "fact" that "GrandDuchessAndrea" posted that OTMA and the Heir "scorned" their titles, thus perhaps indicating that they wished to be viewed as "less priviledged"?  I refer to her posting # 53, 01/13/11, "Re: IF's nicknames-----they weren't meant for us," and again more specifically reaffirmed in her Post #58 of the same topic. You will notice that I have asked her to back this, IMO, absurd remark with authentic, documented quotes, but of course, she hasn't, dodges the challenge, and I think can't or won't produce anything of the sort (Reference Posts # 56 and 59).  
  But this is the same individual who today asks for the correct spelling of the "Kitchen Boy" 's name, when approximately 22 pages of responses about him are available here with little or no research effort/s.  How many times has the FA pointed out to research such trivial items, without relying on someone else to do it for them?   With regards, and a Happy New Year to you,  AP
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 03:07:50 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Greg_King

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 588
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
    • Atlantis Magazine
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #239 on: January 16, 2011, 11:52:23 PM »
Execution is sort of a catch-all phrase. Nuance is sometimes best left unexpressed when you reach the end of a book and have to figure out a way to suddenly cut out 20,000+ words because you went over the limit set by the publisher.

But back to the book....