Author Topic: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson  (Read 146180 times)

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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2010, 11:34:15 AM »
Real Anastasia - I had never thought that surviving the murder would have been more horrible than being killed with the family.  That is a point of view that is new to me.

However, I think you have a good point.  It makes much more sense for the survivors of the Imperial Family to reject an impostor than to be "bad people" who would reject their own beloved Anastasia for the sake of money or power or pride.  It follows that Grand Duchess Olga would have done anything to accept her niece not ignore her.

Many would think that the "romance" would be in believing that Anastasia survived.  I have never believed that the woman who claimed to be Anastasia could really be the Grand Duchess.  That woman was slovenly and ill mannered and rude.  I could never believe that the real Anastasia would have sunk to that level, not matter how much she had suffered had she survived.  Anastasia was not a "child" at the time of the murders with no training, education, or sense of self worth.  The real Anastasia would have been 17.  Far to old to act like a the spoiled "brat" that Grand Duchess Olga and others found the Anna Anderson to be.

I have not yet read the new book by Greg and Penney and so I can not comment of what they have said.  However, if the "final chapter" is now being closed, I hope that what they have found brings comfort to everyone and the truth to all.

Sorry, but Anna's behavior was one of the things that convinced me the more about
her identity. Anastasia was depicted like an "enfant terrible" and when I read some of Anna's answer to her friends and letters, etc, etc it was quite clear to me that it was our spunky "Imp" who was hiding behind these phrases. Sometimes, she was rude and haughty, but I don't find this so awfully odd, for she claimed she had survived a great tragedy. If my family had been killed right before my eyes, I should be quite crazy. Other thing that put me in Anna's side was precisely this kind of behavior : an impostor  would not treat her supporters in a such rude way if she was really an imposter. If I was myself an imposter, I think I should be nice to my supporters, trying to have a glamorous life and profiting my connections to high class to have a great time with them (Oh, yes! Be sure of it! :D). I should not have lived in an old barrack in Untenlenghenhardt   , rejecting journalist, not wanting to see anyone and starving myself. That was rather absurd...These are the main reasons (adding to the facial features), for I was an AA supporter. If she was an impostor, she'll try to be nice to people and show to others as the lost princess she claimed to be. This case is the weirdest in the world...An impost er, who doesn't acted like an imposter but who was after all, an imposter...

Yes. Really weird.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2010, 02:49:41 PM »
I just started reading the book in a zig-zag fashion and got through quite a lot of it. It was very well researched and written. Greg King & Penny Wilson must be proud on what they accomplished. I am satisfied that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia based on the facts and the DNA and the hair sample (which is after all Greg's own evidence). However I am not so convinced about Gaillard and Ernie of Hesse. Most certainly the German language and him burning his own research material calls to question his motives...Ernie's vendetta corners on to whether he visited Russia during the war. It seems like it is now generally accepted now that a trip may have been taken place. Based on the testimony on both sides (German & Russian). It is a fact that Greg King shied away from because he was working in Darmstadt (and do not want the door to his research closed). I don't think Anna got this as "gossip" as indicated in the book, she was very convinced of it. It is very interesting that both Ernie and VMH did not meet up with Anna and unmask her in person. That led to the fact that they were afraid that it "might be" really Anastasia. Irene, who met her had doubts until the end. I found the reactions of the royals towards this case more interesting than Anna Anderson herself. I think maybe another book is needed to clear out the loose ends. This book has put Anna back into Franciska. All and all, a book not to be missed.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 12:29:05 PM by Alixz »

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2010, 03:32:03 PM »
I just started reading the book in a zig-zag fashion and got through quite alot of it. It was very well reaserched and written. Greg King & Penny Wilson must be proud on what they accomplished. I am satifised that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia based on the facts and the DNA and the hair sample (which isafter all Greg's own evidence). However I am not so convinced about Gaillard and Ernie of Hesse. Most certainly the German language and him burning his own research material calls to question his motives...Ernie's vandetta corners on to whether he visited Russia during the war. It seems like it is now generally accepted now that a trip may have been taken place. Based on the testimony on both sides (German & Russian). It is a fact that Greg King shied away from because he was working in Darmstadt (and do not want the door to his research closed). I don't think Anna got this as "gossip" as indicated in the book, she was very convinced of it. It is very interesting that both Ernie and VMH did not meet up with Anna and unmask her in person. That led to the fact that they were afraid that it "might be" really Anastasia. Irene, who met her had doubts until the end. I found the reactions of the royals towards this case more interesting than Anna Anderson herself. I think maybe another book is needed to clear out the loose ends. This book has put Anna back into Franciska. All and all, a book not to be missed.  ;)

 

   You've said it, Eric! I share 100% your opinion. There are a lot of things who need to be cleared up. We already knows that AA was Franziska (I don't read the book but it seems certain she was), but it should be interesting to made some research about Anastasia's family reactions when AA surfaced. No doubt about Auntie Olga. She was a greast person. The best of the Romanovs, I think. But I suppose that other reactives could have thought that AA could have been Anastasia and wouldn’t acknowledge her as so. I never understood why Ernest didn’t travel to Berlin to unmask AA in person. Most of her enemies had never seen AA in their whole lives. Happily for them, it turned out that she was not Anastasia, but just think it were the opposite…

Irene’s reaction makes me sad, for she seemed doubteous at the end. She even cried saying something over the lines of: “She is similar, she is similar. But what’s the matter if it is not she ?”  What a drama…What a tragedy…

RealAnastasia.
       

Offline Greg_King

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #63 on: December 24, 2010, 09:24:16 PM »
Real Anastasia - I had never thought that surviving the murder would have been more horrible than being killed with the family.  That is a point of view that is new to me.

However, I think you have a good point.  It makes much more sense for the survivors of the Imperial Family to reject an impostor than to be "bad people" who would reject their own beloved Anastasia for the sake of money or power or pride.  It follows that Grand Duchess Olga would have done anything to accept her niece not ignore her.

Many would think that the "romance" would be in believing that Anastasia survived.  I have never believed that the woman who claimed to be Anastasia could really be the Grand Duchess.  That woman was slovenly and ill mannered and rude.  I could never believe that the real Anastasia would have sunk to that level, not matter how much she had suffered had she survived.  Anastasia was not a "child" at the time of the murders with no training, education, or sense of self worth.  The real Anastasia would have been 17.  Far to old to act like a the spoiled "brat" that Grand Duchess Olga and others found the Anna Anderson to be.

I have not yet read the new book by Greg and Penney and so I can not comment of what they have said.  However, if the "final chapter" is now being closed, I hope that what they have found brings comfort to everyone and the truth to all.


Funny but about the least of my own personal objections to her having been Anastasia would have to do with her personality. I can imagine a surviving Anastasia, coming from that environment, with those autocratic parents, and surviving the shooting of her family, turning out EXACTLY like AA did-difficult, moody, rude, and all in all disagreeable. Of course this demeanor that AA possessed played, for so many, into the idea that she simply HAD to be genuine as why would a claimant NOT try to do everything to be cooperative. But as we outline, AA had very real reasons NOT to cooperate, lest she be exposed as Franziska.

Offline Greg_King

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #64 on: December 24, 2010, 09:30:17 PM »
I just started reading the book in a zig-zag fashion and got through quite alot of it. It was very well reaserched and written. Greg King & Penny Wilson must be proud on what they accomplished. I am satifised that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia based on the facts and the DNA and the hair sample (which isafter all Greg's own evidence). However I am not so convinced about Gaillard and Ernie of Hesse. Most certainly the German language and him burning his own research material calls to question his motives...Ernie's vandetta corners on to whether he visited Russia during the war. It seems like it is now generally accepted now that a trip may have been taken place. Based on the testimony on both sides (German & Russian). It is a fact that Greg King shied away from because he was working in Darmstadt (and do not want the door to his research closed). I don't think Anna got this as "gossip" as indicated in the book, she was very convinced of it. It is very interesting that both Ernie and VMH did not meet up with Anna and unmask her in person. That led to the fact that they were afraid that it "might be" really Anastasia. Irene, who met her had doubts until the end. I found the reactions of the royals towards this case more interesting than Anna Anderson herself. I think maybe another book is needed to clear out the loose ends. This book has put Anna back into Franciska. All and all, a book not to be missed.  ;)

Thanks for the kind words. On Ernie, I would simply say that had we actually uncovered PROOF of his alleged 1916 trip we certainly would have included it, despite the fact that we were working so closely with the Staatsarchiv. We didn't. I think what appears in the book is as close to the truth on this as we are likely to come: it wasn't the "trip" but rather the contention that AA's claim showed "intimate knowledge" that is what was important-and with so many people coming forward to say, "Oh, we ALL knew about it," it could scarcely have been an intimate Imperial secret. Whether it took place or not-and I don't know-there is nothing in the claim that shows AA "knowing" something she should not have.

Ernie never met her because his sister did and denounced her and, let's face it, this is a guy so emotional that his wife and family lied to him for a year about Ella's death. Throwing Ernie into a meeting with AA would have been like asking him to sit down to dinner with Yurovsky. He simply avoided it on the word of Irene, who I am sure DID harbor some doubts, as did many people on both sides-they simply kept changing their minds, certain one day, uncertain the next. This is why AA's case became so intriguing-it was never quite as black and white as people wanted it to be.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #65 on: December 25, 2010, 04:50:46 AM »
'Irene’s reaction makes me sad, for she seemed doubteous at the end. She even cried saying something over the lines of: “She is similar, she is similar. But what’s the matter if it is not she ?”' 

I'm not surprised that both Olga and Irene were uncertain. They were both kind-hearted people who would, I'm sure, have been delighted if someone had survived Ekaterinberg. By the time either of them met Anna Anderson, she had amassed a lot of knowledge and supporters, certainly enough to make a person wonder whether she really could have been Anastasia.

As to the improbability of the escape story, a good part of my reason for doubt is that there was no reason to go to Berlin anyway. The Czech Legion reached Ekaterinberg only a week after the massacre and remained in possession of the city for almost a year. Though a former guard at the House of Special Purpose would wish to get his head down, it would have been possible to get Anastasia to a hospital while she recovered and then leave Russia by the Trans-Siberian Railway, then under White control, as a lot of refugees did.

Ann 

Offline Ilana

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2010, 10:26:42 AM »
I would also state that Greg and Penny would not have shied away from putting research into their book even if it did not please someone at the Darmstadt Archives.  I did not ask Dr. Franz about it because I didn't NEED to.  This, however, was their topic, if they found something that was "controversial" in any way...again, they would not hesitate as credible historians to use it.

What Greg says about Ernie is of course what I have concluded as well, though Ernie is more his field than mine. The "sisters" kept Ernie in cotton wool most of his life.  He was indeed the emotional and fragile one with abandonment issues.  They did keep the details of Ella's death from him as long as possible, knowing, of course he would learn the truth in newspapers.  I have never read any letters that he wrote to Irene or VMH castigating them for not telling him the absolute truth.  It seems to me there was a gentle conspiracy to make sure that Ernie was never too distressed.

VMH left the AA issue up to Irene and had no reason to doubt her.
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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2010, 12:43:38 PM »
I can see trying to get to a close relative.  I can not see wandering around Europe possibly marrying or not and giving birth to a baby or not and then leaving it.

The whole thing from beginning to end made no sense.  Of course it was not a true story and so of course it didn't make sense.  I think I would have assumed, if I had survived, that someone in my family would want me to contact them and I would, of course, want to "go home".

I would not have been remote, uncouth, without the manners that I was brought up with.  Anastasia may have been an "Imp", but being an Imp in the protected atmosphere of the palace around those who would love and forgive her, is not the same as alienating all who might be able to help a stranded survivor.  To me the alienation is what Greg just referred to.  A way to keep those who might actually be able to expose her away so that she could pretend to be someone she was not.  FS knew that anyone who got too close would find out the truth and expose her for the impostor she was.

I still believe that the real Anastasia would not have devolved into the person that Anna Anderson was.  And that is why, no matter what book I have read, I have never been entirely able to buy into AA being AN.  Especially after she married Manahan.  There was no reason to live in filth and squalor after she had a believing protector in the man she married.  That just never made sense and by that time, she had gathered enough information from gossip and magazines and books and hearsay to make the world believe that she was someone she was not.

But what I believed during the last 50 or so years that I have been reading about the Imperial Family and their way of life and their deaths doesn't truly matter.  The truth is that AA was not AN and now Greg and Penny have written about it.

Offline TimM

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2010, 06:25:10 PM »
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Especially after she married Manahan.  There was no reason to live in filth and squalor after she had a believing protector in the man she married.  That just never made sense and by that time, she had gathered enough information from gossip and magazines and books and hearsay to make the world believe that she was someone she was not.

Apparently, they lived like that to, in their own words, throw off KGB assassins.    It was either part of her act, or, as she got older, AA actually began to believe her own lie.
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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #69 on: December 26, 2010, 01:35:55 AM »
But just remember that Jack Manahan also believed he'll be killed by KGB. I don't know if AA believed she really was Anastasia or not...but that Jack was certain of it and became almost crazy supposing everybody was against his wife.

I'm not sure AA acted so rude to people fearing she'll be discovered as FS. She was mean toward people who believed her claim and in little things not concerning her identity. She was agressive toward people around little details like the meal was not 100% O.K, or because she had fell in the bathroom, or this or that...These were the details that made me believe for so many time she was AN. An imposter had no reason to be so agressive to people who was kind to her. It could be understable that she acted agressive when a person would come to establish her identity - she was not AN - but what was the sense to act rude toward people who was deboted to her and never doubt about her identity? Nonsense...

Other thing that always puzzled me is the rage AA showed when Doris Wingender recognized her at Seeon Castle. AA seemed perfectly capable to hide her emotions when something could turn badly for her. She acted as the best of the actress when his own brother, Felix, surfaced and, at first saids: "This is my sister, Franziska". She acted as if she hadn't see him in her whole life! How couldn't she control herself when Doris appeared at Seeon? Did the book cover this issue?

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Offline TimM

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2010, 01:42:17 AM »
Quote
I'm not sure AA acted so rude to people fearing she'll be discovered as FS. She was mean toward people who believed her claim and in little things not concerning her identity. She was agressive toward people around little details like the meal was not 100% O.K, or because she had fell in the bathroom, or this or that...These were the details that made me believe for so many time she was AN. An imposter had no reason to be so agressive to people who was kind to her

It was part of the act.  People would think:  "Why is she being mean to those who want to help her?  A real imposter would go out of their way to be nice.  Since she's not doing that, she MUST be Anastasia!"  And it worked, this convinced many people she was AN, not FS.
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2010, 03:38:17 AM »
To my mind the unpleasant behaviour and living in squalor came from Anna Anderson's mental illness.

Ann

Offline Greg_King

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2010, 05:23:01 AM »
Other thing that always puzzled me is the rage AA showed when Doris Wingender recognized her at Seeon Castle. AA seemed perfectly capable to hide her emotions when something could turn badly for her. She acted as the best of the actress when his own brother, Felix, surfaced and, at first saids: "This is my sister, Franziska". She acted as if she hadn't see him in her whole life! How couldn't she control herself when Doris appeared at Seeon? Did the book cover this issue?

RealAnastasia.

We do. And actually when she came face to face with Felix she did NOT, contrary to what has previously been written, behave as if it was nothing. The Duke of Leuchtenberg's two daughters recalled that when she spotted Felix she "became very agitated, and her jaw trembled through the whole of the meeting." So she wasn't terribly adept at disguising her feelings.

As for her reaction to Doris: this was the same day that the Berliner Nachtausgabe broke the unmasking story, and at the time of the meeting AA had no idea she had been discovered. So suddenly into her rooms comes Doris-right out of a past she was trying to escape, forget, and erase. I think it's easy to imagine what was going on in AA's mind when that happened.


Offline Greg_King

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2010, 05:28:10 AM »
To my mind the unpleasant behaviour and living in squalor came from Anna Anderson's mental illness.

Ann

Maybe. The problem is no one will ever be able to accurately address her mental state in these years from 1968-1978 when things really started to go downhill. Being around the eccentric Jack didn't help AT ALL. But don't forget that there may be something else at work here: she was, after all, a farm girl, poor as things go (not impoverished, though), so the hoarding of possessions, etc., may owe something to those early years when the family did struggle, before Anton inherited his father's farm. You see that kind of behavior today with hoarders, especially people who lived through difficult times early on.

Other peculiarities though-like her passion for animals, cats, and cremating her pets in the fireplace-that all traces back to Kachubian folklore, where they believed in reincarnation into animals and a lot of other odd bits that she began to openly display in her years in Charlottesville.

Offline TimM

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #74 on: December 26, 2010, 11:26:23 AM »
Back in the 1970's, there was this show, In Search Of (hosted by Leonard Nimoy) and they did a segment on Anastasia.  At the time, Jack and Anna Manahan were still alive, and they interviewed them.  Jack did most of the talking.  Anna said something like "Either you believe or you don't believe."

Of course back then there was still room for doubt.  However, one thing that I noticed was that Anna struggled with the English language, while the real Anastasia was fluent in it.  I wonder if anyone else picked up on this.
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