Author Topic: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson  (Read 146280 times)

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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #75 on: December 26, 2010, 12:39:01 PM »
Thanks Greg. I think the thing about Anna Anderson is that she had so many lucky breaks. Her knowledge and those info screened by her supporters made it hard for people to believe she was false. Those who reconized her included Princess Xenia Georgievna, Grand Duke Andrei of Russia and his wife Mathilde (Mistress of Nicholas II), Crown Princess Cecilie of Prussia (whose mother was a Romanov), Prince Sigismund of Prussia (son of Princess Irene of Hesse, sister of the Tsarina), Princess Vera Constantinova, Crown Princess Martha of Norway, Lili Dehn (close friend of the Tsarina)...Could all of them be wrong ? Also remember both (Irene & Olga who met Anna was not convinced but wasn't absolutely sure at the end). So most of those who were against her never actually met her (Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse, VMH, Dickie Mountbatten, Barbara of Mecklenburg & Grand Duke Kyrill of Russia). It make people think why did they not go unmask her themselves ? A face to face with Anna could do the trick (Irene did so with Eugenie Smith), were they afraid that they may be brought around to believe her story ? The German language story did a lot of harm to those who believe her to be false (Gibbes, Gaillard & Countess Sophie knew that Anastasia spoke & learn German till the end. why did they lie in court ?). I really enjoyed the book ! Thanks !

Anastasia was not fluent with English as unlike her elder sisters, she did not have an English nanny but a Russian one ("Shura"). She learned Engllish formally from Gibbes later. Even then she was not a very good student.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #76 on: December 26, 2010, 03:02:08 PM »
More on the language issue: Anna Anderson did speak currently German...but not correctly. Did the new book explain why did she speak it faultly? If fact, AA was a German citizen, not a Polish one. Her family was of Polish roots, but they were "technically" German.

I've read in Blair's Lovell book that AA not only can speak Russian but she was also teaching it to her friend Adèle Heydebrand. The people who was researching evidence in her favor even found a notebook in which she was teaching Russian to her friend. I couldn't find any explanation to this issue...Well, i'm not being 100% true about it. The ONLY explanation I've found is that it was Mrs. Heydebrand who was teaching Russian to AA ? Am I right?

RealAsnastasia

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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #77 on: December 26, 2010, 03:06:38 PM »
To my mind the unpleasant behaviour and living in squalor came from Anna Anderson's mental illness.

Ann

Maybe. The problem is no one will ever be able to accurately address her mental state in these years from 1968-1978 when things really started to go downhill. Being around the eccentric Jack didn't help AT ALL. But don't forget that there may be something else at work here: she was, after all, a farm girl, poor as things go (not impoverished, though), so the hoarding of possessions, etc., may owe something to those early years when the family did struggle, before Anton inherited his father's farm. You see that kind of behavior today with hoarders, especially people who lived through difficult times early on.

Other peculiarities though-like her passion for animals, cats, and cremating her pets in the fireplace-that all traces back to Kachubian folklore, where they believed in reincarnation into animals and a lot of other odd bits that she began to openly display in her years in Charlottesville.

That's all new for me! So, her closenes to Anthroposofism was related to some practices of Kachoubian folk?

RealAnastasia.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #78 on: December 26, 2010, 03:07:39 PM »
Other thing that always puzzled me is the rage AA showed when Doris Wingender recognized her at Seeon Castle. AA seemed perfectly capable to hide her emotions when something could turn badly for her. She acted as the best of the actress when his own brother, Felix, surfaced and, at first saids: "This is my sister, Franziska". She acted as if she hadn't see him in her whole life! How couldn't she control herself when Doris appeared at Seeon? Did the book cover this issue?

RealAnastasia.

We do. And actually when she came face to face with Felix she did NOT, contrary to what has previously been written, behave as if it was nothing. The Duke of Leuchtenberg's two daughters recalled that when she spotted Felix she "became very agitated, and her jaw trembled through the whole of the meeting." So she wasn't terribly adept at disguising her feelings.

As for her reaction to Doris: this was the same day that the Berliner Nachtausgabe broke the unmasking story, and at the time of the meeting AA had no idea she had been discovered. So suddenly into her rooms comes Doris-right out of a past she was trying to escape, forget, and erase. I think it's easy to imagine what was going on in AA's mind when that happened.



So, she WASN'T a so good actress after all...It's only that the Leuchtenberg's had lied to us...

RealAnastasia.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #79 on: December 26, 2010, 03:11:09 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure AA acted so rude to people fearing she'll be discovered as FS. She was mean toward people who believed her claim and in little things not concerning her identity. She was agressive toward people around little details like the meal was not 100% O.K, or because she had fell in the bathroom, or this or that...These were the details that made me believe for so many time she was AN. An imposter had no reason to be so agressive to people who was kind to her

It was part of the act.  People would think:  "Why is she being mean to those who want to help her?  A real imposter would go out of their way to be nice.  Since she's not doing that, she MUST be Anastasia!"  And it worked, this convinced many people she was AN, not FS.

I don't think FS was so bright than that. She was not a good actress as we may see...If AA was false, I can only conclude that her claim lasted that long only for some people who supported her lied making untrue statesment in her favor...


RealAnastasia.

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #80 on: December 26, 2010, 03:32:20 PM »
It sounds as if many of us are still confused.  But not about the identity of AA but the reasons behind the role she played and the reasons that those who should have known her or recognized her did not. 

I guess it is time to read the book.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #81 on: December 26, 2010, 04:52:18 PM »
Yes. Not easy for me to buy it, but I think I will. Yes, I must admit I AM confussed. Years and years of believing (and for good reasons, not romantic ones) are not easy to left behind. It's hard for someone who believed a great deal of data as "the real thing" (for example in the books you read "...AA was very calm when felix Schanzkowsky appeared before her eyes..." and now, to finding out it wasn't true) to discover it was scrap...

In this case, almost everybody lied, not only AA. Even Mina Becker, the lady who helped to identify Anne Frank's diary! This is specially hard tpo swallow.

In some ways, I'm not totally convinced. Maybe I accept AA as FS after the reading of the book. It's almost 99% sure. But...I'm doubteous about the causes of all this mess: " Why Harriet Rathlef, Gleb and Tatiana Botkin - both of them had their father killed along with the Romanovs- Jack Manahan ,  the Leuchtenbergs, Xenie Georgievna and the Jennings did what they did? Why did they endorse a totally fake woman as AN? Why Peter Kurth, who is an honest and truthful researcher was convinced about AA bieng AN even againts DNA evidence? I always remember that he knew her personally, and it must have struck him specially. She must have been really special after all...

I didn't know James Blair Lovell, but he seemed to have been really convinced about AA's identity. He even faked some info just to demonstrate it, and there0s people who even said that Penny and Greg didn't made all the research they must, having researched only at Hessian archives. They still believe that AA was AN...

What and odd case...Isn't it?

  RealAnastasia.

Offline TimM

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #82 on: December 26, 2010, 06:42:19 PM »
Of course the big thing that helped FS was that the Soviets kept silent on what they did to the family.  They never came out and said:  "The familly is all dead, here are their bodies."  The got rid to the bodies and covered it up, only rumours got out.  There simply was no way to find solid evidence to disprove her claim.

By the time the USSR fell and the thruth started to come out, FS had been dead for seven years.

I don't know why Peter Kurth won't accept the DNA results, DNA does not lie.  It was DNA that finally convinced the late Simon Wiesenthal (sp?) that both Martin Bormann and Joseph Mengle, Nazis he had hunted for decades, were dead.  Maybe that Mr. Kurth was friends with FS has clouded his judgement.
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #83 on: December 26, 2010, 09:51:16 PM »
RA-I know you haven't read the book yet, but be assured that I think most of your questions will be addressed when you get a chance to do so. I would, though, caution you in assuming now that "everyone" lied, because that's certainly not what we say. Certain people lied, primarily those in the 1920s. Minna Becker, for example, never lied; her work on handwriting was simply wrong-partially because as one of her French comrades explained, the court provided only copies of written samples, which made it impossible for handwriting analysts to conclusively determine things like strength of pressure, the depth of the stroke, etc., that are necessary when rendering an opinion on handwriting for the court. So she was not lying about anything-merely working with bad samples, as the courts all later judged.


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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #84 on: December 27, 2010, 08:35:41 AM »
Of course the big thing that helped FS was that the Soviets kept silent on what they did to the family.  They never came out and said:  "The family is all dead, here are their bodies."  The got rid to the bodies and covered it up, only rumours got out.  There simply was no way to find solid evidence to disprove her claim.

By the time the USSR fell and the truth started to come out, FS had been dead for seven years.

I don't know why Peter Kurth won't accept the DNA results, DNA does not lie.  It was DNA that finally convinced the late Simon Wiesenthal (sp?) that both Martin Bormann and Joseph Mengle, Nazis he had hunted for decades, were dead.  Maybe that Mr. Kurth was friends with FS has clouded his judgement.

Tim, I think you are right.  If the Soviets had simply produced the bodies or the location of the burial, then AA would not have been able to take her sham as far as she did.  I have always wanted to know what motivated her to do this to begin with.  Perhaps that is in the book as well.  Maybe we will finally find out why FS jumped into the canal in Berlin and then came out Anna.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #85 on: December 27, 2010, 10:26:18 AM »
I have read the book but it is still not easy to take. I still have reservations on the actual death of the Romanovs. It is not I do not think they were spared. But the matter of how they try to fit everything nicely into a senario. The part about the bullets flying due to the corsets was first raised by the book "The File on The Tsar", and when the official record did came out it match that perfectly. Edward Radzinsky raise the problems about the execution and the DNA. Do remember when the Romanovs were reburied, The Russian Orthodox Church refused to acknowledge them as the imperial family but only as "Christian Mythors of the Revolution". That was further complicated by the Japanese researcher who matched the DNA with the sweat particle of Grand Duke George (brother of Nicholas II) with Olga Alexandrovna (sister of Nicholas II)'s son, but did not match the official DNA of Nicholas II. The Russian Orthodox Church congradulate the Japanese researcher at once. What is happening here now ? I think AA's DNA has been proven not to be Anastasia, but that does not mean the mystery of what really happened(including the body of Grand Duke Michael) would be revealed.

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #86 on: December 27, 2010, 10:36:00 AM »
I just ordered the book.  It should be here, according to Amazon, on Thursday 12/30/10.

It sounds a bit more complicated than I originally thought.  I do wonder why no one is ready to say with complete certainty that the bones found belonged to the Romanovs.  It would seem highly unlikely that another group of people with the right number of victims of the right age and sex would have been buried in Pigs Meadow in the summer of the murder.

This is very confusing and so I am looking forward to reading the book this coming New Year's weekend.

Since I don't know what Greg and Penny have said but I have read Kurth and Lovell and Summers/Mangold, I am looking forward to this new perspective.

Why should the murder of one family be so hard to come to terms with?  Why should the evidence be so hard to find and to prove to be true?

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #87 on: December 27, 2010, 10:44:32 AM »
The book just deals with AA saga. It starts from Anastasia to Anna Anderson to Franciska. It did cast more doubts on her supposed memory and physical similarities with the grand duchess. It did demolish her case and let people (who supported AA) to think there is a strong argument for her to be Franciska. The book is very well researched and written but it did not answer every question. Apart from the ones I raised on what I have posted. The fact that Anna Anderson was quite convinced of the trip "Uncle Ernie" took during the war was not discussed in detail. The fact that Victoria Luise of Brunswick heard it being discussed and Crown Princess Cecilie confirmed it being taken place with others on the Russian side made it possible and believable. I did not buy King's stance that it was "gossip". That is an important element in that that cannot be glossed over.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #88 on: December 27, 2010, 12:54:08 PM »
RealAnastasia

I came to Anna Anderson from the opposite direction, having begun as a sceptic and remained so. The whole story of her 'escape' seemed so inherently improbable.  What interests me now is how someone who, to my eyes, didn't look at all like Anastasia, managed to convince so many people for so long. That is why I am looking forward to reading the book.

Ann

The story of her "escape" was not so improbable for me. Argentina is a country of European immigration, and a lot of people who settled here, having suffered WWI and WWII escaped more miraculously than the story AA told to her supporters. I knew an old man (now dead) that had received a bullet in his head and had been lying under several corpses for some two hours. The murders (in this case, Russian soldiers at WWII), believed they had killed him. He waited until they went away, and then almost dead but not dead, reached a  house, where he was helped. The bullet had not entered in his brain, but only to the surface tissue.  He was cured by a doctor. he had the face almost all smashed a had some bullets in other parts of her body. He was hidden and healed, and then, his brother and him went half walking, half in charriot trying to reach France's borderline, what they did. They lived poorly and after a while, they took a ship and settled in Buenos Aries.

No; AA's "story" COULD have happened. But is just that it never happened.All that she stated could have been the way she did; it just WASN'T.

RealAnastasia,.

I think these post are VERY important to remember in future discussions.   AA's story could have happened, it's just that it never happened to FS.  

I won't spoil this explanation which King and Wilson gave in their book.  But the answer is there for you to read.

The other reason I mention it,  is because time after time I provided information proving that AA's story of her trip from Ekaterinburg to Budapest had
been possible, because others had survived by escaping by this same route, and, AA may have been merely repeating true stories she had heard.  

Now,  I'll go finish this new book of King and Wilsons.   I do have a few questions, well, maybe more than a few about  AA being FS....   Surprise.  Surprise.  Surprise.  But I'll wait until most of you have had a chance to read their book.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 12:56:10 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Greg_King

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #89 on: December 27, 2010, 10:05:27 PM »
We don't conclude anything other than that the Romanovs were killed in the Ipatiev House. Aside from going in briefly to the identification of the 2007 Koptyaki remains (and speaking personally, here no one will ever convince me that it was not Anastasia whose remains were found then given the uniform opinions of the disparate American forensic teams who examined and opined on the original Koptyaki remains) we simply report what is true-they have all been found. We interviewed Michael Coble about the whole "conspiracy" scenario for this as well as with the AA DNA tests, and you can find his comment on this in the epilogue.