Author Topic: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson  (Read 145286 times)

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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #150 on: January 04, 2011, 10:45:06 AM »
FA  Thank you for the explanation.  It had me finally thinking that I understand but then Janet said:

"No, a DNA result is not a "verdict". It indicates a probability, which taken in conjunction with other indicators and evidence inform one's personal opinion" 

That is the kind of statement (and Janet please forgive me, I am not at all slamming you, I am just confused) that does confuse me!

I feel like a complete "dummer Esel" when it comes to all of this.  I am sorry FA, you have done a great job of explaining.

The whole Alixz and Zelda connection made a lot of sense.



There is always a scientific "possiblility" that a mutation "might" have spontaneously occured in a more recent generation. Now don't read a lot into this. The "probability" that this happened in the AA testing was found to be ONE TRILLION to one.  This is science speak for "it almost certainly didn't happen but we still have to allow for that chance that this is the first time in a TRILLION human births that it might have".  Does that reduce your confusion??

 

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #151 on: January 04, 2011, 10:56:38 AM »
I think it does.  Trillions (check out the National debt) are almost too much to comprehend in any form, but that is one heck of a lot of people!

It is clearer now.

Thank you, again.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #152 on: January 04, 2011, 12:27:37 PM »
"No, a DNA result is not a "verdict". It indicates a probability, which taken in conjunction with other indicators and evidence inform one's personal opinion" 

'That is the kind of statement (and Janet please forgive me, I am not at all slamming you, I am just confused) that does confuse me!'

I think the point is that DNA did not give 'absolute' yes/no results, more that it can show with a very high degree of probability whether, for example, two people are closely related or not. For example (and forgive me if I've got this wrong), the minimum of five generations between mutations means that, with five differences between the mtDNA sequences of Anastasia and Anna Anderson means that there is a very high probability of at least 25 generations between them and any common female-line ancestor.

Taking four generations per century, this puts any putative common ancestor at least 600 years back, to roughly 1300.

Ann


Think of it this way. The mtDNA is better at "no" than yes". So, we knew by the mid 1990's that AA could not have been closely related to Alexandra. We did not know who she could be related to, but there was no doubt about the "no". No, she was not related to QV, the Empress, or the DofE. No.

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #153 on: January 04, 2011, 07:22:52 PM »
Hey Everyone!  I thought I'd just stick my head up and say "hello" for the first time in a long time.  I'm pretty busy at work these days -- I manage a bodybuilding gym owned by a bodybuilder friend, so that's sort of a new interest of mine.  =)   But FINALLY our Anastasia book is out there!  I know Greg and I look forward to discussing it, and explaining how it developed and grew.  Writing it was a roller-coaster -- but it's always fun to work with Greg.  So -- I'm here and ready to talk Anastasia whenever you all are!

 
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #154 on: January 04, 2011, 07:25:37 PM »
Re Reply # 167:  Welcome back, Penny!  I DO have the book and appreciate your and Greg's efforts (and especially the documentation)!  Best wishes for the New Year!   Regards,   AP.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 07:27:17 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline TimM

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #155 on: January 04, 2011, 07:27:17 PM »
I've just started it today.  So far I like what i have read. 

Well done, both of you.
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #156 on: January 04, 2011, 08:26:03 PM »
Welcome back, Penny! I hope you will contribute when you can, loved yours and Greg's newest!

Offline TimM

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #157 on: January 05, 2011, 06:16:25 AM »
Well, it seems AA/FS changed her story more than I changed my socks, it's a wonder the woman had any credibility at all.  However, it seems that the Fox Mulder mentality was in play here, namely "I Want To Believe."

I can understand those Russian exiles and how they must have felt.  Their country had been virtually stolen from them, they had been driven out, and I can see them clinging to ANY hope of bringing back the old ways, no matter how small that hope was.  From what I have read so far, the whole thing was helped by second hand information.  Someone saw or heard something and it just snowballed.  No doubt some were in it for the money, but I think others really believed, or WANTED to believe.  The Dowager Empress refused to give up hope that Nicky and his family was alive unitil the end of her life, and everyone just let her go on believing it.  Of course, who wants to tell a sick old woman that two of her sons, her daughter-in-law, and five of her grandchildren have been brutally murdered.  AA/FS only muddied the waters further.

Of course, back then, no one really knew what had happened to the Imperial Family.  From their viewpoint, they had just disappeared in 1918.  When the Whites took Ekaterinburg, there was evidence that something terrible had happened, but no direct proof.  Namely no bodies.  The Soviets, by covering up their crimes, added to the confusion.


Excellent book.  I recognize a few names on the acknowledgement pages from here :)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 01:43:43 PM by Alixz »
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #158 on: January 05, 2011, 06:36:22 AM »
Tim

I agree with all you say.

I think a lot of the exiles wanted to believe that SOMEONE had survived, and so concentrated on the 'positive indications' that suggested that Anna Anderson could be Anastasia - her apparent recall of minor details, for example. Others were cautious and concentrated on the 'negative indications'. Others still felt sorry for Anna Anderson (not surprisingly, in all the circumstances). Of course, all the meetings she had with various exiles and people who had actually known the family - the patients in the Tsarskoe-Selo hospital, for example, gave her more nuggests of information which she made use of. And sometimes being 'too traumatised' to see anyone or remember anything was very convenient!

Ann

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #159 on: January 05, 2011, 11:05:22 AM »
Yeah, as I said, part of the problem was, at that point, there was no real evidence that Anastasia was dead.

Non-Believer:  Anastasia was murdered in 1918.

Believer:  Oh yeah, can you show me her body, a picture of her body, or produce a witness that saw her die?

Non-Believer:  Uh, no.

Believer:  Well, so much for your argument.

AA and those around her profitted from this lack of evidence on the other side, and those that wanted to believe Anastasia had lived.  Now we know she didn't, but back then the question was open.
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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #160 on: January 05, 2011, 05:58:02 PM »
Well...That is still the Japanese finding that the bones in the mine is not Nicholas II, by using the sweat particules of his long dead brother Grand Duke George and the son of his sister Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna. That IS an important finding that Greg King "brushed aside" in his book "The Fate Of The Romanovs" but that finding is DNA based too. You cannot have favour one DNA finding when another DNA finding tells you another. I do not want to comment here, but it seems people here accept that DNA is 100% infallable !  hense I decided to throw this in. If the bones in the mine is not Nicholas II then AA is not FF too. Also do remember that Japanese team had the applause of the Russian Othodox Church who decided to bury the bones as "Christian Saints of the Revolution" rather than as the Imperial Family.

Hi Eric, for clarification on why the Nagai results can't really be taken too seriously, you can read this article that Margarita Nelipa and I wrote a few years ago (originally published in European History Journal)  http://www.facebook.com/notes.php?id=102002640405&notes_tab=app_2347471856#!/note.php?note_id=124212444290669 

BTW, DNA evidence is - for all intents and purposes - IS a DEFINITIVE verdict, not just "probability". To say otherwise, once again, shows a misunderstanding of DNA science.  ;)

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #161 on: January 05, 2011, 07:00:01 PM »
Hey Everyone!  I thought I'd just stick my head up and say "hello" for the first time in a long time.  I'm pretty busy at work these days -- I manage a bodybuilding gym owned by a bodybuilder friend, so that's sort of a new interest of mine.  =)   But FINALLY our Anastasia book is out there!  I know Greg and I look forward to discussing it, and explaining how it developed and grew.  Writing it was a roller-coaster -- but it's always fun to work with Greg.  So -- I'm here and ready to talk Anastasia whenever you all are!

 

 Penny,

So good to hear from you, again.

The whole process of our learning about AA was a wild ride

from the beginning to your  published book.   And,  I am so very happy that I don't have to fly anymore space ships after  climbing  off the fence I've been perched for a long time.   If you remember,  I had promised to remain on the fence until the two of you publish your book which you both thought would prove to Bear and others that we were wrong in thinking AA was FS.    

Bear has to tell you both:  It has been fun watching the two of you  evolve  and grow into better researchers and authors.

Bear's conclusion is:  I think the majority of us are standing  and applauding  the both of  you because what you tried to do was to discover the truth and in doing so,  you realize AA might be FS and didn't stop until you were satisfied that you both had been wrong because AA was FS then put it on paper for all of us to read.  


All my best to the both of you.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 08:48:21 AM by Alixz »
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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #162 on: January 05, 2011, 07:11:21 PM »
Despite our differences, I agree wholeheatedly with Bear. Indeed, a work well done. Congratulations !
 Robert
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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #163 on: January 05, 2011, 08:24:34 PM »
It seems to me that, in a way, FS was a tragic figure.  Apparenlty her original intentions were just to say "Hey, look at me, I'm somebody!  I'm Anastasia!"  If left alone, it probably would have ended there, but, as I said, others got involved and the whole thing just snowballed.  FS was just happy to be noticed, so she went along with it.  Soon it got so big that, even if she wanted to, she couldn't admit the truth.   She didn't want the rejection that would bring.  Towards the end of her life, though, she had lost interest.  When she moved to the U.S. and married Jack Manahan, it seemed she was done with the whole thing.  She just said:  "Either you believe or you don't believe."

I've also revised my opinion on Gleb Botkin.  For a long time I thought it he was in it for the money.  However, he really believed her.  He let this belief cloud his judgement, and he made enemies of the surviving Romanovs because of it.

All this because some poor misguided woman just wanted the world to know she was alive.  Sad.
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #164 on: January 05, 2011, 10:22:36 PM »
More to the point, I think Franziska had a deep desire to feel loved, to belong, and in the Romanovs she found something that had been lacking in her life-an idealized family, even if only by proxy. So while she certainly knew what she was doing, there is an undeniable psychological aspect to what happened that mitigates to some extent the effect it had on others. I don't know that she can be held completely responsible in the same way we might do with someone lacking her psychological background and overwhelming despair. That's why I think it's best to tread gingerly in assigning motives to her to fit preconceptions-she wasn't good nor evil, merely human, and clearly unequipped emotionally to make correct choices in life that would not harm others.