Author Topic: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson  (Read 146187 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2912
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #240 on: January 17, 2011, 03:30:38 AM »
Personally, I would call it murder, and not differentiate between the killing of any of the 11 people in the basement of the Ipatiev House. 'Execution' implies a proper legal process. The word is also used from time to time of the Mafia and similar organisations killing off their ex-adherents and the like, but implies a cold-blooded efficiency in killing which was certainly not a part of the occasion we are talking about.

If you want a reasonably 'neutral' term, then 'killing' seems to fit the bill.

Ann

Offline matushka

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #241 on: January 17, 2011, 06:24:05 AM »
Many thanks, Mrs Wilson for your answer. As RealAnastasia, I was not aware that Anna Anderson already met Felix Dassel in 1923, a fact which change of course the whole story!

Offline Greg_King

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 588
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
    • Atlantis Magazine
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #242 on: January 17, 2011, 06:57:52 AM »
Personally, I would call it murder, and not differentiate between the killing of any of the 11 people in the basement of the Ipatiev House. 'Execution' implies a proper legal process. The word is also used from time to time of the Mafia and similar organisations killing off their ex-adherents and the like, but implies a cold-blooded efficiency in killing which was certainly not a part of the occasion we are talking about.

If you want a reasonably 'neutral' term, then 'killing' seems to fit the bill.

Ann

Except "killing" is a clunky term as a descriptor. But the issue of execution vs. murder vs. assassination is best dealt with in another thread I should think and can only ever come down to opinion

Offline MademoiselleAndrea

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Take me as you find me, all my fears and failures.
    • View Profile
    • Past A La Mode: A Presentation and Celebration of Historical Fashion
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #243 on: January 17, 2011, 10:52:07 AM »
aleksandr pavlovich, I am not "dodging the challenge" to post evidence as to OTMA scorning their titles, in fact I searched a bit today after reading your post which was rather offending to me, for I know for a fact that I read an anecdote somewhere that mentioned OTMA not liking to be called "Your Highness", to the extent that one of the girls displayed her dislike for the title quite openly. I have many other things to do than scour the Internet for a little anecdote which I know I shall come across eventually, and in that event, post it. As to the spelling of Lenoid Sednev's name, the fact that there was a big thread about him over in "Servants, Friends and Retainers" simply slipped my mind. Forgive me for an off-topic post, but I feel it is my right to defend myself from untrue presumptions.
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, "I used everything You gave me". --Erma Bombeck

Offline RichC

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #244 on: January 17, 2011, 12:15:29 PM »
aleksandr pavlovich, I am not "dodging the challenge" to post evidence as to OTMA scorning their titles, in fact I searched a bit today after reading your post which was rather offending to me, for I know for a fact that I read an anecdote somewhere that mentioned OTMA not liking to be called "Your Highness", to the extent that one of the girls displayed her dislike for the title quite openly. I have many other things to do than scour the Internet for a little anecdote which I know I shall come across eventually, and in that event, post it. As to the spelling of Lenoid Sednev's name, the fact that there was a big thread about him over in "Servants, Friends and Retainers" simply slipped my mind. Forgive me for an off-topic post, but I feel it is my right to defend myself from untrue presumptions.

GrandDuchessAndrea, is this the well known anecdote you were thinking of?

From Nicholas & Alexandra, Part 2, Chapter 11, page 128, first edition:

Within the household, they were addressed in simple Russian fashion, using their names and patronyms: Olga Nicholaievna, Tatiana Nicholaievna.  When there were addressed in public by their full ceremonial titles, the girls were embarrassed.  Once at a meeting of the committee of which Tatiana was honorary president, Baroness Buxhoeveden began by saying, "May it please Your Imperial Highness..."  Tatiana stared in astonishment and, when the Baroness sat down, kicked her violently under the table.  "Are you crazy to speak to me like that?' she whispered.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 12:19:57 PM by RichC »

aleksandr pavlovich

  • Guest
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #245 on: January 17, 2011, 12:40:56 PM »
Re Post # 263 and "RichC":   Thank you for your attempt to help this "GrandDuchessAndrea" out of her situation, but I have already referred to the single same instance (with other sources quoting the SAME example) in my previous post to her. (Likewise I had commented on the given name, patronymic, etc. usage.) Thus she has this information already. As you can see, it specifically relates to TN.  Also see my upcoming post,#265.  Many thanks!   AP.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 12:59:08 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

aleksandr pavlovich

  • Guest
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #246 on: January 17, 2011, 12:46:24 PM »
   "Re "GrandDuchessAndrea" and Post # 262:  Thank you for your, IMO, essentially non-productive response, after having to be again reminded.  
    BUT OF COURSE, you read an "anectdote/illustration" re that "one of the girls displayed her dislike for the title quite openly" :  I REPEATED/GAVE/openly posted it to you in my previous commentaries:  You may read it for yourself in the latest King and Wilson book (THEIR references for this single incident:  Pierre Gilliard's "Thirteen Years at the Russian Court", page 75/ Buxhoeveden,  'Life and Tragedy," page 158) that I have likewise quoted for you (the person was Grandduchess TN, who kicked a lady-in-waiting under the table for using "Imperial Highness.")  We ALL know THAT one, but where are quotes (PLURAL) that you wish to offer as "proof" for the "scorn" that the ENTIRE OTMA AND THE HEIR exhibited, and reaffirmed as such in your two posts?
    Feigning "offense" and not having enough time are very simplistic/convenient excuses. As you know, other youngsters like yourself, have the potential to believe whatever they see written here as "truth," and to date you have not conclusively PROVEN your statement/s.  Lesson to be learned:  Don't post "facts" if you are not willing to back them up with evidence when asked. To take on this responsibility is a courtesy to ALWAYS be extended.  Surely you should have learned that in your albeit somewhat limited, research in (middle?) school. I will look forward for the other documented, authentic quotes and sources......... IF and WHEN you ever produce such.  Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 01:12:11 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline StevenL

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
  • Don't believe everything you think.
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #247 on: January 17, 2011, 02:50:57 PM »
Greg and Penny,

Heartfelt congratulations on another amazingly interesting history and, above all, an insightful treatment of a remarkable 20th-century phenomenon. I enjoyed it immensely. ... As with FOTR, my only regret concerning "Resurrection" is not to be able to read everything that was cut out in order to meet the publisher's requirements.

Best,
Steven Lavallee
Providence

aleksandr pavlovich

  • Guest
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #248 on: January 17, 2011, 04:16:01 PM »
To Penny Wilson and Greg King:  I echo "Steven's" comments in Post # 266.  I am particularily appreciative of your all-important documentation of the sources. Additionally, the captioning at the top of the pages of (foot)notes (i.e. "Notes To Pages 142-152") is immensely helpful in quickly locating a specific source follow-up.  I am now on my third reading of the volume, and I, too, would regret that the content of the book had to be shortened to meet the requirements of the publisher. Best regards,   AP.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 04:18:55 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline MademoiselleAndrea

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Take me as you find me, all my fears and failures.
    • View Profile
    • Past A La Mode: A Presentation and Celebration of Historical Fashion
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #249 on: January 17, 2011, 05:34:57 PM »
Aleksandr pavlovich, I am not making up excuses. The reasons I gave were throughly true. Also, you did not GIVE the anecdote to me, you merely mentioned it and did not post the whole text. (and I must have not read it thorughly the first time.) Thank you, RichC for posting the anecdote, that is indeed the one I was thinking of. If Tatiana, who was thought to be the most dignifed of the Grand Duchesses, kicked a lady-in-waiting for calling her Your Highness, I can only think that the rest of the girls, (but I do not know about Alexei, I think that he rather liked being called "Your Highness" and given the treatment according to his rank,) would not like it either! Now, I know you are going to harass me for not having a valid source for this, but really, why must we always have documented evidence for everything we post? Forums are for expressing opinions, among other things. And one more thing--"Feigning offense"? I did not feign offense! I was, and am, truly insulted by your posts. Also, I do not believe everything seen here as truth. It seems that you are expecting me to live up to your expectations, which I do not have to do.
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, "I used everything You gave me". --Erma Bombeck

aleksandr pavlovich

  • Guest
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #250 on: January 17, 2011, 06:05:47 PM »
 Re Post # 268 and "GrandDuchessAndrea":  And NOW, we can understand at last that you CANNOT prove/support your original points/statement of "scorned," and have AGAIN "waffled", by now excluding the Heir as a "scorner" of title/s , yet you had SPECIFICALLY included him, as you originally stated, twice. (Additionally, you will recall that you had earlier, when questioned, "adjusted" your original "IF" designation, to exclude from the "scorned" statement, the "Emperor and Empress.)
 There is no "harassment"; you were asked to take the responsibility for the validity of your statement/s and your responses rapidly became more and more convoluted in subsequent attempts to explain that in actuality via authentic, documented sources, you couldn't. It is easy to now see that what you believe is a "fact" is in reality what you THINK it to be, even resorting to "extended/imaginary" reasoning:  Reread your fifth sentence (beginning "If Tatiana....") carefully.
  IMO, you have finally answered my question/s and for that, I thank you.  I therefore have no further need to comment on the matter.  Regards, AP.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 06:40:06 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #251 on: January 17, 2011, 10:11:38 PM »
Okay, kids, time out for everybody.

I have a question about Jack Manahan. He is an interesting figure to me in all of this, because he was with her for the end of her life. I used to see them eating out in Charlottesville when I was a student, and his reputation was that of an eccentric who became much more of one after the marriage. Greg or Penny: do you have any feeling as to whether he was ultimately aware that she was not ANR? Or was he the last true believer, so to speak?

Simon
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1937
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #252 on: January 18, 2011, 01:03:03 AM »
I get a smile reading the Acknowledgement page.  I recognize quite a few names from here :)
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Offline Greg_King

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 588
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
    • Atlantis Magazine
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #253 on: January 18, 2011, 06:14:01 AM »
Okay, kids, time out for everybody.

I have a question about Jack Manahan. He is an interesting figure to me in all of this, because he was with her for the end of her life. I used to see them eating out in Charlottesville when I was a student, and his reputation was that of an eccentric who became much more of one after the marriage. Greg or Penny: do you have any feeling as to whether he was ultimately aware that she was not ANR? Or was he the last true believer, so to speak?

Simon

With thanks as always for the previous kind post about the book-just don't want to clutter things up.

Now-Jack: I am SURE he believed she was Anastasia-but then Jack believed almost anything. If anything, he made her even WORSE-more eccentric, more paranoid, and he was certainly responsible for much of the claptrap about "doubles" and people attributing to her stories of "no massacre" and the rest. I think it's pretty clear HE was the one who believed in all of this revisionist nonsense.

Offline Ilana

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • I love any info on VMH
    • View Profile
    • Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Re: "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson" by King And Wilson
« Reply #254 on: January 18, 2011, 11:26:43 AM »
I'm about 2/3 through this and am about to read about Franziska...

It kept running through my head..."why not get Anna Vyrubova to see her....".  Do you really their reasons for not asking her to give her opinion were really strong enough?  It seemed so lame to me.  She had been with the family daily for so long...I sort of think that would have trumped Rasputin involvement.  Maybe though, that's hindsight.

Enjoying book immensely Greg and Penny, good job!
So long and thanks for all the fish