Author Topic: "Grabbing at Straws"  (Read 67299 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #360 on: February 07, 2005, 05:47:49 PM »
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I can't remember now, but did Yurovksy claim in his note that they tried to burn more than two bodies, or was it just two? If they only tried to burn the two, then why would there be signs of cremation on others? Also, even if they had attempted to burn a couple of the others and didn't get too far, then no scorching would be seen on the bones anyway, because the fire wouldn't have had the chance to get to the bone...


Yurovsky had one story for his 1920 testimony and another for his 1934 testimony.

In his testimony in 1920,  he said:  
"We wanted to burn A. and A.F. but by mistake the lady-in-waiting was burth with A. instead.:

1934 he said"
"....while grave was being readied, we burned two corpses: Aleksei and, apparently, Demidova, instead of Alexandra Fyodorovna, as we intended."

So, my next question is:  How and when did he know he had burned the wrong body?  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Denise

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #361 on: February 07, 2005, 05:52:05 PM »
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Yurovsky had one story for his 1920 testimony and another for his 1934 testimony.

In his testimony in 1920,  he said:  
"We watned to burn A. and A.F. but by mistake the lady-in-waiting was burth with A. instead.:

1934 he said"
"....while grave was being readied, we burned two corpses: Aleksei and, apparently, Demidova, instead of Alexandra Fyodorovna, as we intended."

So, my next question is:  How and when did he know he had burned the wrong body?  

AGRBear


Well, how do you mean?  As Penny pointed out, neith Demidova nor Alexandra had signs of burning from fire when they were found.  Do mean when did he realize he had burned one of the daughters in place of the empress and lady in waiting?  Ot that he had mistaken the two older women for one another?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #362 on: February 07, 2005, 06:00:58 PM »
It was not Alexandra and it was not Demidova but Yurovsky voiced an error had been made.  At what point in time was the error discovered?  

The reason I ask this is because Yurovsky knew what both women looked like.  According to other wittnesses the bodies had been well preserved and everyone could reconize each of the corpses.  So, how is it that a mistake was made?  And,  how could two older women's bodies be mistaken for a young body like Anastasia's/Maria's?  And,  how and when did he discover the error?  As they were smashing the faces with their rifle butts? And, even if they had discovered the error,  why would Yurovsky mention the error at all?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Denise

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #363 on: February 07, 2005, 06:08:48 PM »
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It was not Alexandra and it was not Demidova but Yurovsky voiced an error had been made.  At what point in time was the error discovered?  

The reason I ask this is because Yurovsky knew what both women looked like.  According to other wittnesses the bodies had been well preserved and everyone could reconize each of the corpses.  So, how is it that a mistake was made?  And,  how could two older women's bodies be mistaken for a young body like Anastasia's/Maria's?  And,  how and when did he discover the error?  As they were smashing the faces with their rifle butts? And, even if they had discovered the error,  why would Yurovsky mention the error at all?

AGRBear


This is a good point.  One would think, with AA running around being GDA, he would say that it was Anastasia that was burned.  But instead he acknowledges that it was a mistake between 2 older women.  And in hindsight, how could he even realize the mistake was made?  If the grave was re-opened, the bodies would be badly decomposed and unrecognizable....

Offline AGRBear

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #364 on: February 07, 2005, 06:27:30 PM »
Here is a diagram of the bodies found in Pig's Meadow:


The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp

Assume missing are GD Anatasia and GD Alexei.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Denise

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #365 on: February 07, 2005, 06:28:33 PM »
Yes, I have studied it when Penney posted it, plus it is in 2 or 3 of my books.

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #366 on: February 07, 2005, 07:35:01 PM »
Bear that is an intersting point, how could he not tell the difference between the two women????  It is obvious that burning the bodies would take much more heat than an outside bonfire could generate.  

I am also wondering about confusion at this point, within the ranks.  How could they have knowingly misplaced two of the bodies, and not fear a reprisal from Moscow when they found out.  

I also am wondering whether there was dissention in the ranks, with the White Army closing in, couldn't there have been a worry about being caught & executed for their part in the murder??  

There is something that I find fascinating here, WHY is it that Anastasia's body is missing, and in 1920 less then 1yr 1/2 later, an unknown woman pulled from a Berlin Canal CHOOSES the youngest daughter as the one whose name will go down in history as escaping the guns of the Cheka Squad.  Is it just chance, one out of four...Which one should I choose...Olga, Tatiana, Maria,
NO, I know Anastasia!! Yes I'll be Anastasia.... I just find it all too coincidental at some point, which makes me look at all aspects of this affair, with an open mind.

Offline Denise

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #367 on: February 07, 2005, 07:42:01 PM »
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There is something that I find fascinating here, WHY is it that Anastasia's body is missing, and in 1920 less then 1yr 1/2 later, an unknown woman pulled from a Berlin Canal CHOOSES the youngest daughter as the one whose name will go down in history as escaping the guns of the Cheka Squad.  Is it just chance, one out of four...Which one should I choose...Olga, Tatiana, Maria,
NO, I know Anastasia!! Yes I'll be Anastasia.... I just find it all too coincidental at some point, which makes me look at all aspects of this affair, with an open mind.


Well, there were searches for a missing Grand Duchess, and in Perm they were rounding up Anastasia Romanovas to find the right one.  Is it possible that our Anna Anderson knew of this in some way, and hence picked the missing Grand Duchess that the Bolsheviks had been searching for....

Mgmstl

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #368 on: February 07, 2005, 07:51:36 PM »
I know that AA is NOT AN, I want to claify that after my last post.  DNA results rule that out.  But I find this fascinating.

Offline Denise

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #369 on: February 07, 2005, 07:56:35 PM »
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I know that AA is NOT AN, I want to claify that after my last post.  DNA results rule that out.  But I find this fascinating.


I knew that Michael!  You and I have a similar philosophy on this case, I think.  I like to put the puzzle pieces in.  The DNA puts the majority of the puzzle together, but the rest of it is niggling at me until I can figure it out!

Mgmstl

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #370 on: February 07, 2005, 08:28:26 PM »
Thanks Penny, and glad you are back on this thread!!

After thinking it over, again it is very possible, I think all things are possible right now except the simplest explanation. ::)

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #371 on: February 07, 2005, 08:57:28 PM »
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There is something that I find fascinating here, WHY is it that Anastasia's body is missing, and in 1920 less then 1yr 1/2 later, an unknown woman pulled from a Berlin Canal CHOOSES the youngest daughter as the one whose name will go down in history as escaping the guns of the Cheka Squad.  Is it just chance, one out of four...Which one should I choose...Olga, Tatiana, Maria,
NO, I know Anastasia!! Yes I'll be Anastasia.... I just find it all too coincidental at some point, which makes me look at all aspects of this affair, with an open mind.


Well, from what I understand, there were many various claimants running around after the murder, Olgas, Tatianas. Marias, Anastasias and Alexeis. AA just happened to be the most famous one, but by far not the only one. And you have to remember, many people still insist that it is Maria who is missing, not Anastasia...

Offline Denise

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #372 on: February 07, 2005, 09:01:29 PM »
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This is a major reason why I think we cannot discount the idea of AA being an "inside" plant, placed deliberately by someone with inside knowledge of what happened at Ekaterinburg.  Logically, from here, I would infer that the "plant" selected would not be a mentally disadvantaged individual.



Penny. in your opinion and from your research, are there ANY clues that indicate that this could be the case?  I know many have dismissed this type of speculation as outlandish, but I think it bears closer scrutiny.  I find it odd that NO ONE has ever come forward with prior knowledge of this woman, AA, other than the Schanzkowska family.  And that was never definitely ID'd through the family, just the DNA.  

Could FS have been a plant?  Would that tie all the knots in this puzzle?  I am struggling to try to make sense of all this conflicting information.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #373 on: February 07, 2005, 09:01:54 PM »
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This is a major reason why I think we cannot discount the idea of AA being an "inside" plant, placed deliberately by someone with inside knowledge of what happened at Ekaterinburg.  Logically, from here, I would infer that the "plant" selected would not be a mentally disadvantaged individual.


This is possible, as anything is, but for some reason I doubt it. If she was really planted, wouldn't they have made sure that she didn't make simple mistakes that she made? Yes, she seemed well prepared, but she still made many mistakes in her answers and stories... Also  I think they would have chosen someone who looked a little more like AN. Personally, I think it was just a coincidence.... but who knows.  

Offline Annie

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #374 on: February 07, 2005, 10:22:32 PM »
Also, how would she get the 'memories' of the pre revolution days? Someone from that life still had to feed them to her (since she wasn't Anastasia) I never saw any point in a 'plant'. The Soviets were never involved as far as I know. It makes more since she was plain old FS.