Author Topic: "Grabbing at Straws"  (Read 68617 times)

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Mgmstl

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #375 on: February 07, 2005, 10:41:07 PM »
I don't think anyone suggested Soviet involvement, besides at that point Lenin had too much going to worry about planting fake Romanov's all over the globe.

Offline Annie

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #376 on: February 08, 2005, 06:14:07 AM »
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I don't think anyone suggested Soviet involvement, besides at that point Lenin had too much going to worry about planting fake Romanov's all over the globe.


There has been much suggestion of this, maybe it was before you got here. Oh but you do know about the CHEKA plots. There have been accusations against the Soviets, KGB, etc. I don't believe any of it, but it's been suggested a lot just the same.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #377 on: February 08, 2005, 07:57:10 AM »
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I don't think anyone suggested Soviet involvement, besides at that point Lenin had too much going to worry about planting fake Romanov's all over the globe.


Michael, you are absolutely right, there would be no reason at all for the Soviets to do this, especially when they had so many other things to worry about that the Romanovs would probably be the last thing on their minds.
I still tend to feel that a much more simple explanation is that this woman who called herself Anna Anderson was simply delusional, and, as often is the case, convincing enough to fool many people around her. But this of course is just my own opinion based on a "gut feeling", if you will, and we can't stop anyone from developing all kinds of elaborate alternative theories, or even simply from speculating (as all of us often do here  ;) )...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #378 on: February 08, 2005, 10:50:09 AM »
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Michael, you are absolutely right, there would be no reason at all for the Soviets to do this, especially when they had so many other things to worry about that the Romanovs would probably be the last thing on their minds.
I still tend to feel that a much more simple explanation is that this woman who called herself Anna Anderson was simply delusional, and, as often is the case, convincing enough to fool many people around her. But this of course is just my own opinion based on a "gut feeling", if you will, and we can't stop anyone from developing all kinds of elaborate alternative theories, or even simply from speculating (as all of us often do here  ;) )...


There were many reasons at this time to plant AA into the position of being GD Anastasia.  They are:
1.  At that time, the Bolsheviks thought there were huge sums of money in various banks  [England and Japan for two good examples], and they needed money for guns.  Despite what people say,  at that point in time,  the Whites were making progress.....
2.  They may still have been looking for the real GD Anastasia/Maria and Alexei.  The threat of either still being alive was huge.  Just their appearnce would have been something for the Whites to rally around and who knows if they had surfaced it might have changed the history of Russia.  Russia had been ruled by Tsarinas and had done quite well under Cath. "the Great" who's reign was known as the "Golden Years", only this time there would be a Duma who'd represent the people....

NOTE  Remember, we are talking about those times and what they knew, not what we know today.

3.  The Bolsheviks didn't want anyone to discover their secrets about what happened that night in the Ipatiev House....

4.   At that time,  the Bolsheviks were still trying to discover where certain important leders of the Whites were hiding and what better way then to plant someone like AA into a position where people talked freely about who was where and why and what was happening....

5.  Remember the T.R.U.S.T. ?  She could have been an agent.  For those who do not know what organization this was.  It was an   entire spy system which the CHEKA head Dzerzhinsky had used so well to penetrate even into the British SIS high grounds.

I don't think many of you realize the complexity of what was all happening in the early 1920s.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Denise

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #379 on: February 08, 2005, 11:11:18 AM »
You would think if there was conspiracy, though, someone somewhere in the last 85 years would have discovered a clue that AA was a plant!  There has been no hint, anywhere of this.  

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #380 on: February 08, 2005, 11:40:14 AM »
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You would think if there was conspiracy, though, someone somewhere in the last 85 years would have discovered a clue that AA was a plant!  There has been no hint, anywhere of this.  


Especially since the CHEKA or the KGB or the Soviet Union no longer exist and most records have been opened to the public. Unless we think that this is all an act, and they really do still exist  :o  8)  ;)

Offline AGRBear

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #381 on: February 08, 2005, 12:25:16 PM »
Let me farther explain.

The T.R.U.S.T.  was a front organization that appeared to be a group which the WHITES and loyal Tsar people joined to fight the Bolshviks from "outside" and "inside" of Russia.  It was set up by the clever CHEKA head Felix Dzerzhinsky.  So, everything that was talked about in this organization,  the T.R.U.S.T.,  was sent back to Dzerzhinsky.

Let me make this part clear: The Russians, who were fighting the Bolseviks and joined this organization were not agents.  They believed in what the organziation claimed it was doing.  A lot of money went into various hands.  Trouble was, they didn't know it was the wrong hands, the CHEKA's.  Just like this people didn't realize the information, plots etc. etc. were also going to Dzerzhinsky.

If Dzerzhinsky arranged a plant like AA.  It would not have been a simple task but it could have been done.

Trouble was,  at the end of Lenin's life, Stalin was starting to pull strings in order to gain power.  He was like a bull in a china shop.  He didn't take great care of how he got through the shop he just knew he wanted to get to the other side where there was more and more power.

When Sidney Reilly discovered about the CHEKA's part in the T.R.U.S.T.,  no one wanted to believe Reilly.  So, to prove his point,   he returned to Russia for a private and very secret meeting of members of the T.R.U.S.T. near Moscow.  Well, Stalin had to make a decision.  Did he blow the entire CHEKA organization which had been so very sucessful to catch Reilly or did he let Reilly walk in and walk out?

Stalin chose to arrest Reilly.

Stalin then went as far as closing down every agent connected with the T.R.U.S.T.  and all agents were told to return home.  Then he ordered the execution of all these agents.

Could AA been one of those agents?  Yes, it's possible.  Could she return home?  No.  The news about what was happening to the other agents had spread like wildfire.  So,  she could not go home.

So, what would you have done had you been AA, a Bolshevik agent?  Keep up the act of being GD Anastasia?  Or go home to Russia and be shot?

All help would have vanished almost overnight.  AA was on her own.  No longer an agent but a woman trying to survive.

I think this is a very good speculation.  I have no proof of it.  But, to me,  it appears possible.

As time went on,  she was a woman caught in a world she liked and didn't want to give up....

In old age,  she probably believe she was GD Anastasia.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Denise

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #382 on: February 08, 2005, 12:31:50 PM »
Very interesting Bear!!  In that context, I suppose it COULD be possible.  BTW, where can I read more about TRUST?

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #383 on: February 08, 2005, 12:38:49 PM »
Find any book on Sidney Reilly and it will explain not only the T.R..U.S.T.,  they also explain the part the British played in the political games occuring in Russia.  Lockhardt wrote a very good one.  He worked with Reilly in Russia as an agent.  Reilly wrote a biograpy.  

There are a few books which deny Reilly as as good as he was, but remember,  even the SIS called him Reilly, The ACE of SPIES.

The latest one is by Richard Spence and its called:

TRUST NO ONE, THE SECRET WORLD OF SIDNEY REILLY.

AGRBear

Forgot,  PBS had a nine part series called SIDNEY REILLY, THE ACE OF SPIES.  It is excellent!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Denise

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #384 on: February 08, 2005, 12:42:40 PM »
Since you seem to have read EVERYTHING, Bear (I have a 3 yr old and 18 month old, so no time to read that much anymore) what would you recommend as the best one?  I'd like to go straight to a great source, as opposed to browsing a few.   :D

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #385 on: February 08, 2005, 12:43:40 PM »
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Very interesting Bear!!  In that context, I suppose it COULD be possible.  BTW, where can I read more about TRUST?



Hmmmms, let me see how this flies with everyone.  If it does,  I'll go write me a book  ;D

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #386 on: February 08, 2005, 12:47:36 PM »
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Since you seem to have read EVERYTHING, Bear (I have a 3 yr old and 18 month old, so no time to read that much anymore) what would you recommend as the best one?  I'd like to go straight to a great source, as opposed to browsing a few.   :D


As an introduction and with your children,  I'd go the television series.  It's something you can watch while rocking the kids or doing the dishes after they're in bed....

It was must a few months ago our local channel ran this series, again. Call them,  maybe you can get your station to run it for you.   I'm not sure the cost of the tapes.  Nine hours....  It's the last two hours that talk about the T.R.U.S.T.,  if I remember correctly.

Then I'd go to Lockhardts and then to Spence's.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Denise

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #387 on: February 08, 2005, 12:51:24 PM »
Thanks!!  I do get to read, but it is usually between 10:00 and 11:30 each night.  Of course, now this board eats up a few of those hours too... ;)

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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #388 on: February 08, 2005, 01:18:58 PM »
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BTW, where can I read more about TRUST?


As I recall there's also a lot of information about the TRUST in the book Flight of the Romanovs - especially about a major Soviet effort to get at the GD Nikolai Nikolaevich, considered by many to be the head of the Romanov family even before the death of the Dowager Empress in 1928.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »
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Re: "Grabbing at Straws"
« Reply #389 on: February 08, 2005, 02:21:50 PM »
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There's nothing that I know that would indicate that AA was any sort of plant -- yet if she were, it's an explanation that might leave more knots tied up than left undone.

I do not believe she was anything other than sane -- Lord knows she had enough doctors around her to state their professional opinion otherwise.  She definitely was eccentric in her living habits -- see not only her last years in Virginia, but also her WWII years in the Black Forest -- but nothing really exists to show that she was anything other than rather highly strung.  I know she popped her cork and ran around outside naked and screaming when she stayed with Annie Burr Jennings -- but to put this event in context, there had been a blazing row over something, then someone, in the act of storming into AA's bedroom -- where her being naked is probably pretty normal -- stepped on one of AA's pet birds, killing it.  I'd have lost my junk if someone did that to one of my pets, and I believe I'm fairly normal --   ;)  -- so long story short, I don't really see her as delusional or mentally challenged.

So why would a sane person keep up a charade for so long?  One reason might be that the charade, dismal as it must have been at times,  was better than whatever she had before -- sort of an unofficial, ad hoc, self-imposed "witness protection program."

But she knew so much.  Although she DID get things wrong at times, it is undeniable that she also got things terribly right, too -- including her appearance.  Was it common knowledge in 1920 that GD Anastasia had had distinctively grey-blue eyes?  Not that I've seen.  Even more unlikely, was it common knowledge that GD Anastasia had hallux valgus?  Not that I've seen. Venturing into the realms of human experience, was it common knowledge that Shura Gilliard would soothe Anastasia's forehead with a perfume-infused handkerchief when she wasn't well?  Again -- not that I've seen.

So if she was NOT Anastasia, as we have agreed to agree here, and if she was NOT insane, as I believe -- then what are our options?

1. She was someone close enough to the Imperial Family to observe the details of their daily life -- or she was hand-picked and "trained" by someone who was.

2. She was planted for some unknown political purposes by someone -- perhaps the Bolsheviks, perhaps not -- but someone who knew details of what happened in Ekaterinburg, because she DID get a lot of those details correct also, including certain scars on her body.

In my analysis, each of these sort of limits the pool of suspects, because we would be looking for either a girl or a Svengali with "inside" knowledge of both.  Sort of like Konstantine Ukraintsev, only moreso.  Find that person, and I think you might well solve this thing.


I agree.

There is no evidence that AA was planted by the CHEKA but it's not improbable but possible.

Like I've said.  I never really been interested in AA, so,  I didn't know about the bird.

Isn't it interesting how perspective can change when the WHOLE story is told?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152