The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures, Part 2

However I must admit they were an interesting family...too bad they didn't rule elsewhere in Europe it would have saved a lot of drama in the Romanov family lol

Much as ambition goes, the younger sons were as weak as the other Romanovs (Misha & Sandro...etc). They were not as strategic as the Coburgs.

Grand Duchess Elena. early 1900s.

i wonder if there is colored one? i remember seeing one here, but dont remember where.

I don't think there is a color version of this particular picture on the this board...

Was it painted by a Russian painter ?

'Snobby or not, anyone born into a rich family or be allowed to do anything they want can turn into a brat. Anastasia Nikolaievna and Alexei Nikolaievich were  spoiled brats like Vladimirovichi boys and Elena Vladimirovna, and the Empress herself was very full of herself like Grand Duchess Vladimir.'

Agree entirely. I also agree that there are a lot of similarities between Andrei Vladimirovich and Mikhail Alexandrovich. Part of the problem with them, and other Grand Dukes, was that they had huge amounts of money and no serious responsibilities. Andrei was given command of the Guard Artillery, but that was a fairly nominal role, and Mikhail comanded the Blue Curassiers, but, again, doubtless his subordinates did all the work.

I note that during the war neither Andrei nor Boris even got as far as the Stavka, but spent all their time in Petrograd.

I have a nice vision of Boris laying on the charm with Alice of Athlone on the trip to Thailand, with much hand-kissing and heel-clicking and a slight but definite aroma of too much brandy!

Ann

I personally have a great disdain for the Vladimirovichi line, and it has little to do with Empress Alexandra's feelings for them. Actually, most of the extended Romanov clan held similar opinions of this branch for good reason.

Another point- Grand Duke Mikhail was actually a decorated soldier in WWI, and well thought of military leader. To paraphrase wikipedia, he led an undisciplined troupe, but helped turn them an "effective" fighting force, and was rightly awarded for his service, and was also very highly thought of by those who served under him. Mikhail was again awarded for his leadership in the Brusilov Offensive.

I think we have to be slightly careful about Mikhail's war record. The Russians followed the Prussian command system, whereby the chief of staff had equal authority with the commander (Hindenburg and Ludendorff are an example of a combination in which Hindenburg was the figurehead and Ludendorff did the work - or was it the next one down, Colonel Max Hoffmann?). This was in order to accommodate command by princes. So was it Mikhail who was an active commander (having discovered his vocation during the war), or was he a figurehead with a good chief of staff?

I don't know. James A Pratt III, do you?

Ann

I think we have to be slightly careful about Mikhail's war record. The Russians followed the Prussian command system, whereby the chief of staff had equal authority with the commander (Hindenburg and Ludendorff are an example of a combination in which Hindenburg was the figurehead and Ludendorff did the work - or was it the next one down, Colonel Max Hoffmann?). This was in order to accommodate command by princes. So was it Mikhail who was an active commander (having discovered his vocation during the war), or was he a figurehead with a good chief of staff?

I don't know. James A Pratt III, do you?

Ann

From all that I can gather, Mikhail was indeed an active commander, and very popular with his division. However, only recently have I started studying Mikhail's life, so I may be wrong on that.

I think we have to be slightly careful about Mikhail's war record. The Russians followed the Prussian command system, whereby the chief of staff had equal authority with the commander (Hindenburg and Ludendorff are an example of a combination in which Hindenburg was the figurehead and Ludendorff did the work - or was it the next one down, Colonel Max Hoffmann?). This was in order to accommodate command by princes. So was it Mikhail who was an active commander (having discovered his vocation during the war), or was he a figurehead with a good chief of staff?

I don't know. James A Pratt III, do you?

Ann

Now that I have had the time to look it up, I was right. Mikhail was indeed a true 'war hero' and fought in the front lines bravely, being awarded The Cross of St. George, which is awarded independently from the royal family and required the recommendations of military personnel. Mikhail was almost reckless in his bravery and regard for his own personal safety as a member of the royal family. So no, the Vladimirovichi Dukes do not compare well when compared to GD Mikhail's impressive wartime resume.

I suggest reading The Last Tsar by Don Crawford for a nice, though not extensive, overview of Mikhail's military service.

No comparison between Michael and Cyrill...One was loyal to the Tsar, the other was not.

Fine. I was simply asking the question.

Ann

I think Cyril was in the forces, but what about Boris & Andre ?

Boris and Andrei both held high military ranks but did little in reality. After the Russo-Japanese War Kirill also did very little.

Ann

I think Cyril was in the forces, but what about Boris & Andre ?

"From his birth Grand Duke Boris was appointed patron of the 45th Azov Infantry Regiment, and enrolled into the Semeonovsky Life Guards and the Life Guards Dragoon regiment, the 4th Life Guard Rifle Battalion of the Imperial Family. His education emphasized languages and military training. In 1896, at the age of eighteen, he graduated from the Nikolaievksy Cavalry School with the rank of Cornet of the Life Guards Hussar Regiment. That same year he became aide-de-camp to the Emperor...In October 1903, he enlisted in the Czar's retinue. On 26 February he left Russia for the Far East, to take part in the Russo-Japanese War. On the morning of 31 March 1904, while galloping from the heights of Dacha Hill on the rim of Port Arthur, he witnessed the sinking of the Russian battleship Petropavlovsk in which more than 600 men died; his brother Grand Duke Kyril was among the few survivors. In December 1904, for his bravery in battle he was awarded a golden weapon with the caption For Courage and was promoted to staff captain.
By 1911 he was made a colonel. In the same year he represented the Czar at the coronation of Vajiravudh the King of Siam. Between 1910–1914, he wore the uniform of Colonel of His Imperial Highness the Tsesarevich Atamansky Guards Cossack Regiment. In 1914 he became a major general.  When World War I broke out, Boris Vladimirovich was put in command of the Guards regiment of the Ataman Cossacks. It was a nominal position, and he managed to stay away from the fighting. He commanded this regiment during the War between 1914 and 1915. Thereafter, he was attached to the general headquarters and was made Field Ataman for the commander in chief on 17 September 1915. He served in the army without real distinction. His military responsibilities were only vaguely defined and he did not change his ways during the war, continuing his life of pleasure and idleness....In June 1916, he was having supper at military headquarters while drunk, and in the presence of several officers of the British Military mission, he lambasted Great Britain. His behavior was so insulting that the British Ambassador made a formal protest, and Boris was forced by the Emperor to apologize. When Nicholas II abdicated Boris was at Gatchina with Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich, who declined the throne. This marked the fall of the Russian monarchy and Boris was one of the few members of the Romanov family who went to Mogilev to pay final respects to Czar Nicholas II."

That put Boris in a better light than Cyrill.