Author Topic: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2  (Read 75701 times)

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Offline LadyTudorRose

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2011, 06:32:41 PM »
No it has not.

As well as that, the British government said it has and surely it should know!  I will have to find out more details but this came after the release of previously classified government papers which were an investigation of these allegations against the Duchess many years ago.
The British government never said anything of that nature. The files from 2003 included some stories about Wallis's "reputation" and popular rumors of the time, but none about China. You're thinking of the supposed "China dossier" which was rumored to exist that included stories about Wallis in China compiled by the government, but almost certainly never existed.

Offline Grace

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2011, 06:36:46 PM »
That is what I said.  The British government stated that there was never any evidence that the Duchess of Windsor was involved in spy or prostitution activity during her time in China.  You can't get much clearer than that.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 06:39:10 PM by Grace »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2011, 06:44:50 PM »
I checked the new Vickers books, Behind Closed Doors which is the latest I have  and he does  say there is no evidence of such a dossier existing.  Although he is unabashedly pro Wallis, he is a credible  and respected historian. I suppose he would have the access to any such files that there are in the  archives. So, perhaps it is all just rumours and innuendo. In any case, it does not take much for someone creative to stimulate a man's libido without having to learn  from a Chinese brothel. Anyway, why are we even talking about their sex lives ?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 06:47:18 PM by Robert_Hall »
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Offline Selencia

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2011, 08:19:04 PM »
Wallis sleeping with Edward was not only beneficial to her but also to Ernest himself. A wife taking one for the team and sleeping with a royal is not something new or an act that only Wallis took part in. In various books, there is an indication that Wallis assumed that David would eventually grow tired of her and he would find somebody new and she would be back alone with Ernest. Whether she started the sexual relationship with Edward out of boredom or she was urged on by her husband, either way Wallis did not set out to have a third husband.

Offline LadyTudorRose

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2011, 08:53:33 PM »
Wallis sleeping with Edward was not only beneficial to her but also to Ernest himself. A wife taking one for the team and sleeping with a royal is not something new or an act that only Wallis took part in. In various books, there is an indication that Wallis assumed that David would eventually grow tired of her and he would find somebody new and she would be back alone with Ernest. Whether she started the sexual relationship with Edward out of boredom or she was urged on by her husband, either way Wallis did not set out to have a third husband.
But she didn't just sleep with David. She told him she loved him and indicated she wanted to be with him. I agree that her intention wasn't to marry him, or at least it wasn't to begin with. But this was a serious relationship she was entering, not just an occasional sexual encounter. They were together for two years before she divorced Ernest, and according to his staff she practically lived at Fort Belvedere. She went with him on every vacation he took, and wrote to him whenever they were apart for a few days.

Honestly, I don't think the sexual element bothered Ernest all that much. He got plenty of perks from being married to a royal mistress. But I think what pushed him into having his own affair and led to the eventual end to the marriage was when he began to feel that Wallis had feelings for David and was beginning to put his needs over Ernest's. If all that had been going on was sex, and Wallis had not told David she loved him, or agreed to travel with him and take over things at his houses, the two probably never would've ended up together and he would've moved on to someone else and Wallis's marriage would have remained intact.

Offline LadyCathy

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2011, 12:49:49 PM »
How does anyone know what really went on?  We cannot know what Wallis told Edward.  Even letters do not have to have anything to do with reality, they just may be written with an eye to people reading them some day.  I believe that Earnest Simpson acted like the gentleman he was.  He took Wallis' "friend" Buttercup Kennedy to an inn and committed adultery with her so that he could be the guilty party in Wallis' divorce.  He then faded into the background.  As far as the China dossier or any other dossier, there are things in the archives that will not be read in this century.  Some of the papers relating to the Duke of Coburg and the Duke of Windsor as well as Crawfie's memorabilia are off limits.  Given the kind of man King George V was, it is doubtful that he would not have had the "Simpson Woman" vetted very carefully indeed.  I believe that just as he had all David's relationships investigated he had this one looked into.  We will probably never know the truth in our lifetime.

Offline LadyTudorRose

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2011, 06:41:14 PM »
How does anyone know what really went on?  We cannot know what Wallis told Edward.  Even letters do not have to have anything to do with reality, they just may be written with an eye to people reading them some day.  I believe that Earnest Simpson acted like the gentleman he was.  He took Wallis' "friend" Buttercup Kennedy to an inn and committed adultery with her so that he could be the guilty party in Wallis' divorce.  He then faded into the background.  As far as the China dossier or any other dossier, there are things in the archives that will not be read in this century.  Some of the papers relating to the Duke of Coburg and the Duke of Windsor as well as Crawfie's memorabilia are off limits.  Given the kind of man King George V was, it is doubtful that he would not have had the "Simpson Woman" vetted very carefully indeed.  I believe that just as he had all David's relationships investigated he had this one looked into.  We will probably never know the truth in our lifetime.
So you think the letters, which were dated and often included correct addresses and postmarks, were all somehow faked because they would be read later? If she had done that then I think a lot of things, like the baby talk, and the bitchy comments about David's family, would not have been included. There were plenty of comments in the letters that do not put Wallis in a favorable light. Also, Wallis had originally asked for her letters to be destroyed (like the Queen Mother and Princess Margaret did with some of their private leters) but her lawyer had decided to publish them to make a quick buck.

Most everything relating to the abdication was released in 2003. I don't think anything would be held back about Wallis at this point. Also I think it would be a big coincedence if what really existed was similar to a rumor that emerged from nowhere and is not supported by any evidence. I'm sure Wallis was "looked into" but I'm also reasonably sure little about her life before she movied to Britain was found. This was pre-internet and researching events that happened involving a non-famous person in another country years before would be difficult.

Offline Grace

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2011, 07:09:34 PM »
Exactly, why would material from the Edward/Wallis era be still held back at this period in time?  Supposedly much of it was not released out of respect for the Queen Mother whilst she was alive but since her death in 2002, surely everything is out there now.  If not, what don't we know and who could have said it?

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2011, 05:02:39 AM »
One writer on the subject (I can't honestly recall which, there have been so many, but I think it may have been Frances Donaldson), suggested that the notions of Edward's inadequate sexuality and Wallis' unusual sexual skills came from the sheer incredulity with which many people saw Edward being apparently besotted by a woman who was not particularly pretty, young, and with no overwhelming charm to explain why he would actually come to the point of giving up his throne for her.  The only explanation was that he had special needs which only she could supply and which only the two of them were in a position to know about - hence the lurid rumours. 

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2011, 05:27:59 AM »
The Royal Household are still wary of washing dirty linen in public. Some 15 years ago I was researching an academic article on the Titles Deprivation Act 1917 (by which the Duke of Coburg and others were deprived of their British titles) and it was not until I had proved my 'reliability' that the Royal Archives let me see some correspondence which was even mildly sensitive. The Royal Household are also still not saying where the Garter banners of the Kaiser and others are now (I imagine somewhere in Windsor Castle).

I suspect the salicious rumours about the Duke's lack of sexual prowess and the Duchess's expertise are no more than that. We have to remember that men quite frequently marry the most unlikely wives - and vice versa!

Ann

Alixz

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2011, 09:36:41 AM »
When I previously mentioned her Argentine Diplomat, I didn't mean a bullfighter. 

In Washington DC after leaving Spenser, she "quickly fell in love" with Felipe Espil.  He was a thirty five year old diplomat attached to the Argentine embassy.

After he "dumped" Wallis (for various reasons) he later served as the Argentine ambassador to the US from 1931 to 1943.  He died in Argentina in 1972.

Offline LadyCathy

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2011, 10:35:35 AM »
You are right.  I was wrong.  Thanks.

Offline LadyTudorRose

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2011, 04:10:20 PM »
I think the Felipe Epsil episode in some ways forshadowed Wallis's involvement with David and explains a lot of her behavior. Though of course, Felipe Epsil wasn't a prince, he was very glamorous and successful and many women were after him. Circumstances made it very difficult for he and Wallis to marry, so he eventually dumped her and moved on to someone else pretty quickly. Wallis was apparently very much affected by that break-up, and thus was more guarded when she was first involved with David as she expected a similar outcome. I mean, Felipe Epsil may very well have "romanced" Wallis with gifts and melodramatic declaractions of eternal love just like David did. At least one of the bios of Wallis I read indicated that was probably the case.

I also think getting dumped by Felipe who was superficially handsome and charming may have encouraged Wallis to "settle" for the more dull Ernest Simpson who was much more reliable.

Alixz

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2011, 10:58:46 AM »
The more I research, the more I think I see a "needy" Wallis who longed for that "perfect love".  She married Spencer way too fast and too young, to get away from Baltimore.

She had the affair with Espil during the time she was separated from Spencer and alienated from her family because of the separation.

She may well have gone with dependable but dull Ernest to get away from the roller coaster that she had been riding.

But as to why she allowed Ernest to take the blame for the divorce so that she could marry David has a lot to do with David and probably a lot of other things that we will never know about.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2011, 03:23:27 AM »
In those days it was the done thing for men to take the blame in divorce cases by providing grounds for their wives to divorce them for adultery. Apparently there was quite a little industry in places like Brighton!

Ann