Author Topic: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha  (Read 73878 times)

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Offline edtash

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #150 on: November 24, 2010, 10:26:33 AM »
Is it me or is anyone else jarred by the familiar use of nicknames for people none of us knew, where friends with or are related to?

Eddie

Offline Eurohistory

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #151 on: November 24, 2010, 10:30:57 AM »
This is something I have raised red flags about and as with you, find it jarring. By the number of emails I get from subscribers I know we are not alone, which is a source of much comfort!

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aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #152 on: November 24, 2010, 11:31:05 AM »
Re Replies # 182 and 183:  I will acknowledge that the full content of this post may stray off-topic, but as with both of you, I also find the usage of "family" nicknames more than "jarring."  It is a continually recurring "thorn in the side" the APTMF.  Moderators have cautioned the gushing use of such.  Other than one adult exception, IMO, it arose firstly in the rather silly little teen-age "fan sites," which still seem to be adding  (at a slower rate than earlier), but now with the qualifier "educational,"  when most repeat robotically the same romanticized drivel of anectdotes and photos, complete with "family nicknames" (in many cases a TOTAL invention as per documentation).  The usage seems to convey a pathological "need" to identify with, or be a close-friend/"family member," etc. with the personage in question. The over-usage of template floral adornments and bicephalous eagles, etc., protestations of love for XXXXX, "happy dances" upon the imagined meeting of one of the intended, etc. are thankfully now less rampant, as maturity/realism takes over.  When we have noted and published historians, (as well as AUTHENTIC family members/descendants) for comprehensive reference, who needs another "Grand duchess/es XXXX" tribute, under the guise of being pertinent?  It's merely self-aggrandisement on the part of the "creator. ("Look, come visit my web site"; "See what I know, that YOU don't know,etc." ) And yes, this trend does sometimes persist beyond this initial group.  While an august personage DOES NOT need to be addressed with the full panoply of titles each time they are mentioned, there ARE informal forms of address that CAN be used, unless quoting a source, of course.  To paraphrase Poster # 182:  You were NOT there, Never knew them, or were FRIENDS with them, and ARE NOT related to them. (All this, despite some rather akward individuals, here and elsewhere, insisting to those who will listen, that they are spirit recipients/hold memories of, etc. members of the Russian Imperial Family, the Romanian Royal Family, etc.)     AP.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 11:45:29 AM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #153 on: November 24, 2010, 12:17:01 PM »
Is it me or is anyone else jarred by the familiar use of nicknames for people none of us knew, where friends with or are related to?

Eddie

You're not alone--I think there's a whole thread on it (or part of one on general standards) in the Discusssion section. It comes up quite frequently in a variety of threads and there is a general consensus about it. It seems that most (not all) don't have a problem with common nicknames that come up in correspondence, etc... and hellp distinguish amongst the numerous people with the same name--ie Toria, Ducky, Moretta, all of whom were named Victoria. It's the super-casual ones that were only used within the family (such as Woolley, LooLoo, Masha etc) that seem to really grate on everyone's nerves.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 12:22:03 PM by grandduchessella »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #154 on: November 24, 2010, 05:49:44 PM »
The point is so many people have the same names like Marie, Alexandra, Victoria & Elizabeth that the use of the nicknames were used. Infante Alfonso & Infanta Beatrice (not to be confused with Alfonso XIII's daughter) were in fact Uncle Ali & Aunt Bee to Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.

Offline edtash

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #155 on: November 24, 2010, 08:42:56 PM »
And what is wrong may I ask with using Marie Baden or Marie of Baden, Cecilie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin or Crown Princess Cecilie?

Victoria of Prussia, the Empress Friedrich, Victoria of Battenberg...three different Victorias.

Queen Alexandra, Alexandra of Greece, Alexandra Georgievna, Alexandra of Hohenlohe-Langenburg, Alexandra of Adinburgh, Alexandra Feodorovna – All Alexandras without the need to use familiar names.

Alfonso XIII, Infante Alfonso de Orleans, Infante Alfonso de Borbón, Alfonso of Asturias – All the Alfonsos, no familiarity in using these names.

So your argument holds no water frankly.

Eddie

Offline Eurohistory

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #156 on: November 25, 2010, 03:01:42 PM »
I have never really liked the use of nicknames when addressing these historical figures.

I am reminded of what Archduchess Helen of Austria once asked when I showed her the APA Forums, "Does this gentleman knew my Mother?"

Enough said...

Arturo Beéche
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #157 on: November 27, 2010, 08:15:34 AM »
The problem is that is you have use Alexandra of... in every sentance in a long discussion it did becomes tiresome. Also thereare two Alexandra Feodorovnas (Alix of Hesse & Charlotte of Prussia...I think you are not aware of it). Talking about Alix, there are books that mix up Alix of Hesse with Alexandra of Denmark which was referred to quite a lot of books as Alix. Princess Alix of Hesse & By Rhine was named after her mother Prince Alice of Great Britain.In fact Alix of Hesse signed her name to her cousins as "Alice". So should we say Princess Alice of Hesse or just Princess Alice (which will confuse others either her mother or another cousin Princess of Athone (born Princess Alice of Albany)). Sorry it does hold water but maybe not in your cup.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 04:41:21 PM by trentk80 »

Offline Eurohistory

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #158 on: November 27, 2010, 01:43:41 PM »
I am NOT aware of there being two Alexandra Feodorovnas?

Wow...Eric...now you know what I know?

The second Alexandra Feodorovna was baptized Alix...that is not her nickname...it is HER NAME...Alicky is her nickname as you well know.

So what is so difficult about readers not knowing who is it that one is talking about when one refers to "Alexandra Feodorovna, wife of Nicholas I, and Alexandra Feodorovna, née Alix of Hesse, wife of Nicholas II. Alexandra Feodorovna was the mother of several children, among them four boys: Alexander II, Konstantin, Nicholas and Michael. In comparison, Alix, the last Tsarina, was te mother four girls before the long-awaited heir made his fateful arrival in 1904."  

Is this not better than saying Alicky and Nicky had OTMA and Alexei, while the other Nicky and Alex had Alex, Kostya, Nicky Jr and Misha?

Missy, Bee, Sandra, Ducky, Ena, Vicky, Minnie, Alix, Alicky, Nicky, Kostya, Misha, Miche-Miche, Wooly et al...are nicknames that one ought to refrain from using – they are personal forms of address that denote familiarity...none of us knew these people and we owe them a modicum of respect, at the very least.

Arturo Beéche
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 12:53:31 AM by Eurohistory »
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http://erhj.blogspot.com
European Royal History Journal
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http://www.eurohistory.com

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #159 on: November 27, 2010, 05:20:53 PM »
Cool it Arturo ! They are all dead for a start. Third some of the royals of off the thrones.

Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #160 on: November 27, 2010, 05:21:59 PM »
I  agree Artie
yes, there dead,  but there is a thing call respect for the dead.

down to the bottom line, everyone relax!

personally i too call them by nicknames sometimes, just because writing out there titles can be a pain in the butt...however i don't feel right by doing so. 

so can we go back to the Prince Alfonso and Princess Beatrice de Orleans y Borbón?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 05:27:47 PM by Mandie, the Gothic Empress »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #161 on: November 29, 2010, 11:16:28 AM »
No idea. Yes even royal authors sometimes talk about their subjects like living beings. I do agree that they should be given the title in an eassy or published work. We are just chatting here. Talking about respecting the dead, I remember reading a story that is very interesting. It was around the time that Edward VII died and Kaiser Wilhelm II was visting his royal relatives as usual, noting the sad faces and mourning he announced that he did not know why everyone was so sad & glum "just because that old rooster died !"  ;)

Offline Ally Kumari

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Re: Alfonso de Orleans, Infante of Spain and Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
« Reply #162 on: March 10, 2016, 11:00:44 AM »
Portrait of Beatrice and her eldesr sister Alexandra



From royal collection