Author Topic: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family  (Read 154159 times)

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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #210 on: July 10, 2011, 02:40:12 PM »
Thanks in advance !  ;) I will sent you a private message on that. Appreciate it very much.

I think historians gave Maria Carolina some credit that she was able to remain in power avid doing it clumsily by threats, shouting matches, seduction (in short anything in her arsenal !). As she was a main character in the Emma Hamilton & Lord Nelson romance drama, it gave her quite good press in the English speaking world by allying herself with Britain against Napoleon. The books usually gave her a gushing description by comparing her with her sister Marie Antoinette. Maria Amalia was under the radar and when she was banished back to Austria like her sister, not much was written about her.

Nice to know Mimi has a heart too.  ;D

 

Offline Marc

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #211 on: July 10, 2011, 04:10:52 PM »
I just read an excerpt of Mimi's letter to a friend,  the Princess of Liechtenstein

Do you maybe know who is this Princess of Liechtenstein?

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #212 on: July 10, 2011, 04:52:23 PM »
Most likely a friend. The family has a palace in Vienna.

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #213 on: July 10, 2011, 05:26:41 PM »
Do you maybe know who is this Princess of Liechtenstein?

I'm not sure, Marc. The name wasn't mentioned. Maybe it was Leopoldine von Sternberg, who was married to Franz Josef I. Or Princess Eleonore (nee Oettingen-Spielberg), wife of the prince-general Karl, whom Joseph II appeared to love.   There was another Princess of Liechtenstein in Vienna, but I can't recall her name (married to Francis of Liechtenstein).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 05:48:57 PM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #214 on: July 10, 2011, 06:27:02 PM »
Thanks in advance !  ;) I will sent you a private message on that. Appreciate it very much.


Welcome. And please give me time to gather the information -- they're "dispersed" in 2 laptops and 1 desktop computer, plus some notes here and there. I can send them to you bit by bit.

I think historians gave Maria Carolina some credit that she was able to remain in power avid doing it clumsily by threats, shouting matches, seduction (in short anything in her arsenal !). As she was a main character in the Emma Hamilton & Lord Nelson romance drama, it gave her quite good press in the English speaking world by allying herself with Britain against Napoleon. The books usually gave her a gushing description by comparing her with her sister Marie Antoinette. Maria Amalia was under the radar and when she was banished back to Austria like her sister, not much was written about her.

I think the British writers very much inflated Maria Carolina's importance, intellect, and talents. The Italian writers mainly reviled her (and I can't blame them, for the perspective that mainly mattered were the Neapolitans' and Sicilians', and MC wasn't appreciated by both) while the Austrian ones aren't so harsh. I think what CountessKate earlier said is very plausible -- that she was somewhere in the middle. Although her poor people skills couldn't be denied, and that caused her many (avoidable) problems if she had only learned to temper her rage. 

Maria Amalia was reviled by the French historians. However, I don't think that should count much, it's what the people in the duchy thought of her that should count. Just because France gave money to Parma, they think they had all the right to determine everything there. The Italian historians are mixed -- some revile her, others are quite fair.  But what's interesting is that the hostile ones are mostly silent about how the people regarded her; instead they repeat over and over her faults (real or imagined) - she was ugly, cunning, dominating, vulgar, etc. One very hostile writer even repeated: "Maria Amalia was vulgar, vulgar, vulgar." If said writer gave examples of why/how she was vulgar, that would've been helpful, hmmmm? As for the Austrian historians, most of them don't go beyond Maria Amalia's rebellion either and mainly present Maria Theresa in a very idealised way so Maria Amalia seemed to be depicted at a disadavantage.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 06:29:08 PM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #215 on: July 11, 2011, 11:43:43 AM »
Yes. Maria Carolina also benefited dynastically from being the mother of Queen Amelie of the French, grandmother of Marie Louise (Napoleon I's second empress), Leopoldina (Empress of Brazil), great grandmother of Franz Josef & the Orleans family. Maria Amalia did not have as much as a branch canvas as her more productive sister. Indeed, Maria Amalia was known mostly in most history books as a trouble maker in Parma, taking lovers and being a disappointment to her saintly mother, the great empress. I only hope with your help, I could give her a most balance portrait for others to give her a fair assessment.  :)

Offline Marc

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #216 on: July 11, 2011, 06:34:11 PM »
Do you maybe know who is this Princess of Liechtenstein?

I'm not sure, Marc. The name wasn't mentioned. Maybe it was Leopoldine von Sternberg, who was married to Franz Josef I. Or Princess Eleonore (nee Oettingen-Spielberg), wife of the prince-general Karl, whom Joseph II appeared to love.   There was another Princess of Liechtenstein in Vienna, but I can't recall her name (married to Francis of Liechtenstein).

Thank you for all the options...

I don't think there is any lady married into the Liechtenstein family left(of the age of Imaperial children)apart from those two you mentioned and maybe Karoline von Manderscheid-Blankenheim(1768-1831 and married in 1782)...Thought I thought it could be Eleonore because she was regarded as a "relative" of the Imperial family because of her Oetteingen roots(though other line to an Imperial grandmother) and maybe Holstein roots as Maria Theresia's great-grandmother was Princess of Holstein as was Eleonore's mother(again other line)...


Sorry for this...I just wanted to know to which Princess of Liechtenstein Maria Christina wrote from 1789-1793!

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #217 on: July 11, 2011, 09:28:56 PM »
Indeed, Maria Amalia was known mostly in most history books as a trouble maker in Parma, taking lovers and being a disappointment to her saintly mother, the great empress.

She did make trouble in Parma, but the main motivation cited (she was heartbroken over Karl of Zweibrucken and so she took it out on her poor husband and Du Tillot) is incorrect. At any rate, she was following her mother's orders - get Parma under Austrian influence.

As for her reported lovers, I'd like very much to know who these men were. There was never any concrete proof of such. Bodyguards? The French envoy Comte de Flavigny?  If she ever had them, I can only think of 1 possible lover, who was a long-standing favourite. That said,  Maria Amalia wasn't one to get close/intimate to people...  she didn't give her trust so easily  so how could she have all those lovers early on? Even so, the gentleman in question (the favourite) was also a good friend of Ferdinand's. If it ever amounted to an affair, we can safely say it had Ferdinand's "blessing" (or at least, tolerance).  In addition, Maria Amalia wasn't in good health and Ferdinand kept her busy enough (in their intimate life). Given all that, it's highly implausible that she could find time to have numerous lovers and even live with them openly.... perhaps just one, but even so, no concrete proof. It's funny, she was accused of having many lovers but it was also said that all her children were indeed fathered by Ferdinand! She must be very good at avoiding conception with her lovers then!  ;)  

As for her rocky relationship with her mother --- Maria Theresa didn't seem to like Maria Amalia early on. Maria Amalia didn't want to compromise on certain things -- as far as she was concerned, she was only accountable to her husband. MT was unduly suspicious of her children and kept grudges. We can see the results of all this.  


Thank you for all the options...

I don't think there is any lady married into the Liechtenstein family left(of the age of Imaperial children)apart from those two you mentioned and maybe Karoline von Manderscheid-Blankenheim(1768-1831 and married in 1782)...Thought I thought it could be Eleonore because she was regarded as a "relative" of the Imperial family because of her Oetteingen roots(though other line to an Imperial grandmother) and maybe Holstein roots as Maria Theresia's great-grandmother was Princess of Holstein as was Eleonore's mother(again other line)...


Sorry for this...I just wanted to know to which Princess of Liechtenstein Maria Christina wrote from 1789-1793!


You're welcome and if I find out the identity of said Princess of Liechtenstein, I'll let you know. I also think it was Eleonore, she was the closest, I think, to the imperial family.      
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 09:43:45 PM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline Marc

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #218 on: July 12, 2011, 07:03:17 AM »
You're welcome and if I find out the identity of said Princess of Liechtenstein, I'll let you know. I also think it was Eleonore, she was the closest, I think, to the imperial family.      

I think the same...here is what I found about Princess Eleonore:

"Dadurch wohlhabend geworden, wurde sie von ihrem Vater am Hof von Maria Theresia eingeführt und dort wie ihre Schwester zu einem Kammerfräulein ernannt. Enge Beziehungen hatten beide zu den Töchtern von Maria Theresia."

She had known all Imperial children,including Amalia,so it makes sense that Mimi wrote to her about other siblings...

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #219 on: July 12, 2011, 09:18:51 AM »
Thanks, Marc!  I missed that Oettingen connection of Princess Eleonore of Liechtenstein with the imperial family.  She had an affair with Joseph II and Mimi had one with Eleonore's husband.  What a mess! At any rate, Maria Theresa only seemed to do little about such tangled affairs (she transferred Karl of Liechtenstein to a post in Brussels, presumably to keep him away from Mimi in Pressburg but nothing else was said about any other negative reactions nor did it seem to have "lowered" Mimi in her mother's eyes) and even teased Joseph about Eleonore.  What a double standard for her favourites (Eleonore, Mimi, Joseph as her heir)!  Whereas she couldn't bear the same news - real or imagined - about Maria Amalia and was so angry! Even her (MT) piousness, said to be unshakeable and one of her greatest strengths, was subject to her biases.... it seems that Maria Amalia could not just "win" as far as her mother was concerned!    
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 09:28:34 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline Marc

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #220 on: July 12, 2011, 12:15:19 PM »
I couln't agree more...everything Amalia did was just "wrong"...One must admire her because all this did not afect her at all...it seems she was as strong willed as her mother,but just in oposite directions!

Offline Marc

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #221 on: July 12, 2011, 08:35:44 PM »
Here is one more painting of Amalia with her children provided to you by fellow poster Monica:


Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #222 on: July 13, 2011, 03:09:56 AM »
Marc, thanks, thanks for posting the portrait!

====

I couln't agree more...everything Amalia did was just "wrong"...One must admire her because all this did not afect her at all...it seems she was as strong willed as her mother,but just in oposite directions!

Maria Amalia couldn't be blind that her mother didn't like her.... so  yes, I give her credit for trying to have good feelings for her mother.  
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 03:23:46 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #223 on: July 13, 2011, 11:48:09 AM »
It seems that Maria Amalia like the color red (she wore a red dress in her portrait in the Schonbrunn Palace ) and looks good in it too !  :) Thanks Marc for posting it.

If Mara Amalia was not a favorite of her mother, was she one with her father ?

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Duke Ferdinand of Parma, his wife Maria Amalia,their family
« Reply #224 on: July 13, 2011, 09:48:25 PM »
If Mara Amalia was not a favorite of her mother, was she one with her father ?

I have not read anything yet that explicitly states it. It appears that Maria Anna was the closest child/daughter to Franz Stephan.  Although I have read that she and Maria Anna often accompanied Franz Stephan in outdoor activities. Perhaps it was Franz Stephan's way of making up for the "coldness" of Maria Theresa to both. I believe Maria Amalia, who had an 8-year age gap with Maria Anna, started to "hang around" her older sister and father at a very young age.  And that most likely developed her lifelong love for the outdoors.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 10:00:51 PM by prinzheinelgirl »
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