Author Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 118612 times)

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2010, 10:10:30 AM »
I love to see pictures of Crown Prince Rudolf -- he had such an interesting face...............the more the better.

Below is another photo of Rudolf with some men whose names I don't recognize except for one of his private secretaries:  standing in back on the left.

Arthur Giesl von Gieslingen was mostly involved with military intelligence it seems and was perhaps sent to keep tabs on Rudolf.  He started with him a couple years before his death.  The author of "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolf" also clearly had ties with military intelligence and said he started as secretary to Rudolf a couple years before the events at Mayerling.  However, the author claimed to be several years younger than Rudolf whereas Gieslingen is a year or 2 older.   Here's an interesting bio on Giesl von Gieslingen:  

http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/biog/giesla.htm


According to this bio, Gieslingen was the true mastermind behind the Mayerling coverup -- insuring total confusion to hide the truth.

To enlarge, right click to select "view image" then left click for the + sign:




« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 10:25:42 AM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Yelena Aleksandrovna

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2010, 12:49:25 PM »
The young Crown Prince was quite interested on birds, would be an excellent ornithologist...
and an excellent drawer, birds done by him in 1872

the young Crown Prince goes to hunt at 1878
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 12:52:13 PM by Kaiserin Alzbeta Sissi »
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2010, 11:50:33 AM »


The real story about the state of mind and health of Rudolf towards the end of his life is about as different from the official story as the photos above.
The one on the left is the real last photo of Rudolf taken according to Judtmann.  The one on the right is the drawing of this photo showing a countenance that has little to do with the reality.

Here's another contrasting example:

http://www.archive.org/stream/lastdaysofarchdu01gran#page/280/mode/2up

On page 245 of the above book link provided Rani, "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolf", this is what the secretary had to say about a group of friends last meeting
with Rudolf on January 26, 1889:

".....had the Archducal ménage been a source of fretfulness to him or even had his health of mind and body suggested anything like life-weariness, then I might have admitted a strong presumption for the view that he had premeditated self-destruction.  None of these conditions, however, pointed any way" to this view and ....................."the tragedy of Mayerling, to those who were with him in that final symposium, came with a shock that well-nigh unseated reason itself."

The man who wrote this book had to be Lt.  Victor Fritsche (younger than Rudolf by several years), listed as Secretariat Chancellor, in the last establishment of Rudolf's according to Judtmann's book "Mayerling: the Facts behind the Legend" from a draft prepared by Count Bombelles.  The other secretary was "Head of the Secretariat, Heinrich Ritter von Spindler, who had been with Rudolf for years and had grown children.  The other possibility was Giesl von Gieslingen who was about Rudolf's age, but was preferably known as an Aide-de-Camp.

Now here's the contrast!:  
In the book by Carl Lónyay, Stephanie's nephew-in-law, he repeatedly cites the statements and personal communication of both Victor Fritsche and Giesl v Gieslingen to say that not only was Rudolf seriously suicidal, but that he asked each of these men to join him in suicide!!  They supposedly told Rudolf they were flattered by the invitation but politely declined.   Fritsche also supposedly told Lónyay that Rudolf was so cruel, spiteful and insane towards his Archducal ménage that it was most difficult to find anyone willing to work in Rudolf's establishment/household.  Fritsche also told Lónyay that Rudolf would continuously brag about his romantic  conquests because he couldn't perform in bed.  (in the book by the secretary, he specifically said Rudolf never talked about his personal love life)  

Another tidbit I remember is that Giesl apparently told Lónyay that according to Rudolf's personal physician, Franz Auchenthaler, Rudolf had also given gonorrhea to Mary Vetsera.  However, in Judtmann's book, which is most thorough on documentation, Auchenthaler never did any autopsy/exam on Vetsera.

Unfortunately for the truth, the book by Carl Lónyay, "Rudolph: The Tragedy Of Mayerling" is often provided as a reputable source of facts about Mayerling.   The trouble here is that for whatever reason, justified or not, Carl Lónyay was so bitter and filled with hate towards the Habsburgs that most everything he said has to be suspect.  I don't understand why this point was/is not made about his book the same way it is readily made about those of Countess Larische and Princess Louise (sister of Stephanie) where it is often stated that whatever they say can be discounted because of their spite?  
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 11:54:45 AM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2010, 02:12:59 PM »
Whether these secretaries or aids to Rudolf who came from military intelligence were worshiping his memory as in "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolf" or demolishing it in later statements to those only too willing to listen and document, they can't be faulted for their lack of credibility.  After all, those trained in military intelligence by definition are masters of the art of deception and they are trained to do a job as demanded by the powers of the day. 

My guess is "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolf" were written in 1916 probably with the blessing of at least Emperor Karl who was trying to establish a separate peace with France, the US and other countries by an end run around Germany.  In this case it wouldn't hurt to establish in the minds of some that Emperor Wilhelm II was ultimately responsible for the death of the beloved Crown Prince Rudolf.

Then later, after WWI was long over, a different tune could be played as politically needed which obviously involved once again stressing the suicide of a distressed prince.

The one book I have thus far encountered for which I can find no doubt in its claims is that by Archduke Leopold Ferdinand of Tuscany, later Leopold Wolfling, who wrote "... from Archduke to Grocer".  He presented as a charming and endearing but hapless fellow incapable of duplicity.  He, along with his younger sister Louise, ex-crown princess of Saxony, and his one and only true love for life, the Infanta Elvira de Bourbon all experienced the greatest difficulties in living a little too openly and honestly. 

Here's a photo labeled as Archduke Leopold Salvator but I think it's of the Archduke Leopold Ferdinand instead??



Here's another one of Leopold Ferdinand that is in his book:


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Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2010, 02:23:36 PM »
Yup, the first one is mislabeled. Leopold Salvator was WAY more handsome


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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2010, 02:50:13 PM »
Now, I was missing this thread.... I never trusted the book from Lonyay, after all Crown Princess Stephanie felt a strong hatred for Rudolf and his mother - for their treatment of her, so we only get what she saw as truth... In her memoirs we see the same thing: Rudolf and Elisabeth are quite humanly portrayed etc, to be nice, while Stephanie depicts Mary Vetsera as the saintly girl who was lured into death by Rudolf
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Offline aor

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2010, 08:17:08 AM »
Till the House of Habsburg allows the truth to be told, it's all is speculation. I hope that the 'younger' generation will shine a light on this tragedy when it is time. There are too many 'accounts', too many stories to piece together this puzzle. I for one would love to know about the metal box that was returned from Canada to the Habsburg Family. It should give a lot more credence do Grafin Larish' story of the box handed to her by Rudolph and later picked up by Johann Salvator.

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2010, 12:37:16 PM »
Found this as Mary Vetsera (the gown must be some traditional hungarian gown)
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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2010, 12:47:07 PM »
I have that picture. Believe it's in "Nervous Splendor", labeled as Mary Vetsera dressed up as a peasant for a Costume Ball
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2010, 06:43:14 PM »
Yup, the first one is mislabeled. Leopold Salvator was WAY more handsome


That's true -- your Leopold is WAY more handsome than my Leopold.   Maybe that's why Leopold Ferdinand was not allowed to marry Princess Elvira of Bourbon (political conflicts between families was reason given), but Leopold Salvator did marry her older sister at about the same time.

..................while Stephanie depicts Mary Vetsera as the saintly girl who was lured into death by Rudolf

Stephanie doesn't come across as one with whom it's easy to feel sympathy.   She would have done more to protect her reputation if she never wrote her memoirs.

Till the House of Habsburg allows the truth to be told, it's all is speculation. I hope that the 'younger' generation will shine a light on this tragedy when it is time. There are too many 'accounts', too many stories to piece together this puzzle...............................


The book "Mayerling Murders" and the one by Judith Listowel,  "A Habsburg Tragedy, Crown Prince Rudolf" both had direct grandchildren of Crown Prince Rudolf as collaborators.  Since the conclusions of one book contradicts the other, then either these 'younger' generation Habsburgs don't know the truth, or they collaborated to make sure the truth remained hidden.  The truth is probably already available if anyone is willing to face it.  
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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2010, 06:46:56 AM »
Well.... Maybe the truth is already out there, but we just don't see it. It is possible, with all those theories one does not know what to believe anymore.
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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2010, 09:32:15 AM »
At Kronpriz Rudolf Facebook group i found these three images of Maria Antonia, the supposed first wife of him





 

 
is it really her?

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2010, 10:33:49 AM »
That's fantastic Katenka -- you're so good at finding photos.

According to Judith Listowel, Rudolf was very much in love with her and heart-broken when she decided to enter a convent.   The Emperor didn't think she was grand enough to be Rudolf's wife. 
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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2010, 12:35:20 PM »
The young Crown Prince in horseback with his mother, the Empress Sissi
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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2010, 12:41:50 PM »
At Kronpriz Rudolf Facebook group i found these three images of Maria Antonia, the supposed first wife of him


 

 
is it really her?

That's her. Fancy-dress.