Author Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 127596 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Carolath Habsburg

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4833
  • As seen on TUMBLR!
    • View Profile
    • Victorian & edwardian roleplay in spanish!
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2010, 12:46:38 PM »
Thanks for the confirmation!. Glad to see her face, since i ve heard so much about her

Courtesy of Grand Duchess Ally

"...Пусть он землю бережет родную, А любовь Катюша сбережет....". Grand Duchess Ekaterina Fyodorovna to Grand Duke Georgiy Alexandrovich. 1914

Join the cause "We want an Ignore button

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2010, 01:10:34 PM »
Well.... Maybe the truth is already out there, but we just don't see it. It is possible, with all those theories one does not know what to believe anymore.

 I like your quote:  "Learn To Live With My Darker Side".  The truth about Mayerling probably has a far darker side than anyone wants to see.  For instance, who else was killed that night besides Mary Vetsera?   According to many different sources, there were several people that disappeared from Austria the night of the Mayerling murders never to be seen or heard again.  As I mentioned before this included the servants Max and Otto according to "The Secrets of the Hohenzollerns".  There was also the "suicide" that morning of one of the gamekeepers by the name of Werner (The New York Times of Feb. 2, 1889).  Another death that very well might have happened at Mayerling that night was of Countess Anastasia Wimpffen.

The book, "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolph" probably written by his secretary Victor Fritsch (rumored to be the illegitamate son of a king of Württemberg) refers to Countess Wimpffen as Madame "Larricarda" who was the hostess of the salon of "vaudeville gaiety" in Vienna that was frequented by Rudolph and his friends, and was the most common meeting place for Rudolph with Mary Vetsera.

The secretary relates how he took the train to Baden for a few days vacation while Rudolph was in Mayerling, and on the train, he saw Mary Vetsera with "Madame Larricarda".  He then noticed that the 2 women get off the train at Baden and got into an "ordinary hackney coach  of the provincial type; its direction was the road to Mayerling."   This of course contradicts the official story that Mary Vetsera was driven by Bratfisch in an imperial coach to Mayerling.

So here we have a report of 2 women traveling to Mayerling, and in a short time, they were both dead.  Madame "Larricarda" or Countess Anastasia Wimpffen was reported as a death by suicide (poisoning) about 3 weeks later.  Naturally, I have to wonder, considering all the official cover-up of actual events at Mayerling, when did Countess Wimpffen really die?

An interesting side-light about Countess Wimpffen is that through her, a decendent of the Baltazzi family was finally joined in holy matrimony to a decendent of the Habsburgs.  A few years after her death, her oldest son married the eldest daughter of Count Georg von Stockau, by his wife, Countess Eveline, daughter of Theodorus Evangelis Baltazzi, of Constantinople.  Their granddaughter, Countess Johanna von Wimpffen. b. at Budapest, Hungary, 25th May 1936. married at Vienna, Austria, 27th April 1957, H.S.H. Prince Otto Ernst Wilhelm zu Windisch-Graetz, grandson of Crown Prince Rudolf's only daughter.

http://4dw.net/royalark/Georgia/dadan3.htm





« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 01:19:16 PM by Pezzazz »
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Imperial_Grounds

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
  • Your Memory Keeps Me Alive
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2010, 02:34:34 PM »
Hmmm.... Fascinatin story you told about the Countess. Well, the truth will probably remain hidden, no matter how much we speculate. I also wonder, what would have happened to the supposed ring and such that Mary was wearing? And that quote, well, it is one of strong personal meaning... Every soul has its troubles, mine probably will read that quote. But, no chatting about personal troubles, we're not here for that.
Learn To Live With My Darker Side

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2010, 05:59:24 PM »
Back to the attempt to crack the Mayerling code haha!

What is it about Mary Vetsera that makes for the most mystery in Mayerling?   There's something strange about Mary. 
 
To recap:  The unquestionable Grand Duke Nando with perfect means, motive and opportunity gave some indisputable truths about what happened at Mayerling:
 
1)  Rudolf died from a blow to the head from some strong glass object -- possibly a champagne bottle
2)  Rudolf's death was manslaughter -- there was no intention to kill him.
3)  The Emperor Francis Joseph was in a state of shock the morning after Rudolf's death when Nando arrived.
 
And something else I read this weekend according to telegrams seen by the excellent documentarian Fritz Judtmann, Grand Duke Nando
told Papal Nuncio Galimberti (also shown in the German Ambassador Ruess's report to Otto von Bismarck as well as a 2nd independent confirmation in Marie Larisch's "My Past' from what Dr. Wiederhofer told her) that:
 
4)  Mary Vetsera had a bullet wound at the top of  head as well as other wounds
 
The above gives a high probability that Rudolf did not kill himself, he was killed accidentally and there was no political assassination (although there may have been separate plans for that).   There is also a high probability that Mary was not killed accidentally -- in other words, one accidental killing is plausible.  A 2nd killing the same night in the same location is most unlikely to be accidental also. 
 
So why would anyone want to murder Mary?  Sadly her death appears not to be a Love Kill from some Romantic Pact after all.  This is where it starts to get quite strange. 
 
The popular myth is that Mary Vetsera only met Rudolf a few months before their deaths by writing him a letter professing her love.  Next, what do the best sources actually say about when Rudolf really met Mary Vetsera and why the rush to minimize their time together?

If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline MarieCharlotte

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1336
  • Sophie Charlotte (1847-1897)
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2010, 06:30:09 PM »


Again a picture from the ONB - I actually bought a copy of the original. Again and again it's annoying to find these pictures somewhere in the internet.
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2010, 11:19:59 PM »

 
Here's a photo of Marie Valérie and Marie Larisch.   It probably belongs in one of their exclusive threads but Larisch is now pivotal in this part of the story which diverges.  

It’s always intrigued me why Marie Larisch was banned from court forever for reasons that don’t make a lot of sense.  She facilitated a few meetings between Rudolf and Mary Vetsera after their relationship was already established, and was possibly paid for doing so in part at least to pay off gambling debts.  (Access for cash to pay off gambling debts seemed to be a common practice for many aristocrats in those days including Rudolf as well as his good friend, Albert Prince of Wales, later Edward VII.)

By most reports, Rudolf was a libertine, a real Lothario who had many girlfriends – so many he couldn’t remember their names.  This kind of behavior was more or less accepted among most archdukes since they were expected to marry for political reasons and so finding love elsewhere was typical.  Rudolf also had his main long-term mistress Mitzi Caspar and she was mostly accepted as a part of his life.  Stephanie may not have liked it, but then again, the Emperor and Empress seemed to not care a great deal what Stephanie wanted.  Why, of all Rudolph’s girlfriends, was only his relationship with Mary Vetsera objected to with such urgency – by not only the Emperor, who usually winked at his amorous adventures, but also by the Empress who usually showed little interest in her son’s love life?

Similarly, why did Josel Hoyos and Philipp of Coburg both go to such great lengths to deny any knowledge of the presence of Mary Vetsera at Mayerling even to the Emperor at first – considering it was common knowledge that Rudolph had entertained numerous women at Mayerling?  

Now where the story gets even more confusing or perhaps it’s merely the flip side of the same coin is why did Marie Larisch become “demented” and go into a panic when she took Vetsera to see Rudolf, and he decided to keep her for a couple days contrary to what they agreed?  At first in reading her book “My Past” I just assumed this was her way of excusing herself by showing how distraught she was and that she had been misled – supposedly possible only in hindsight anyway.  However, Fritz Judtmann saw a couple of letters that Marie Larisch had written to the Police Chief Krauss who kept them in his secret files on Mayerling, and these letters asking him to help find Mary clearly showed that Marie Larisch was in a genuine state of panic.  

So what are the possibilities?

A.    Larisch was in a state of panic since her part in helping a romance between Rudolf and Mary might be exposed and considered to be unforgivable behavior on her part for some mysterious reason.

B.   Larisch was afraid for the personal safety of Mary…….of Rudolf……..or for both?

C.   Both A and B
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 11:26:02 PM by Pezzazz »
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Yelena Aleksandrovna

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 3720
  • Fortuna vitrea est; tum cum splendet frangitur
    • View Profile
    • *Glitter Of The Past*
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2010, 02:46:01 PM »
The Crown Prince
Russia cannot be grasped with the mind, or measured in feet and inches, for she has a special character: In Russia one can only believe. ~Fyodor Tyutchev.

Offline Greenowl

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 574
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2010, 07:41:43 AM »
When Count Taffee on behalf of the Emperor issued that first statement (the heart failure story) at noon on 30th January, no one in Vienna knew that the cause of the Crown Prince's death was a bullet to the brain. The Imperial family and court were under the impression that he had been poisoned, and it appears that even Helene Vetsera initially believed this. It was only when the court medical commission headed by Dr. Widerhofer arrived in Mayerling that afternoon that the true cause of death was established. Transport and communications in those days being less rapid than is the case today, it was not until 6h00 the following morning (31/01/1889) when Dr. Widerhofer made his report to Emperor Franz Joseph that the true state of affairs became known. At that stage the "heart failure" version was quickly amended to the "hunting accident" version, which of course explains the damage to the head and the bandages etc.

One fact that has always puzzled me is why Loschek was so quick to jump to the conclusion that Rudolf and Mary had been poisoned with strychnine. My personal theory is that Loschek and also Bratfisch knew far more than they admitted and may have been even acting out a part assigned to them by Rudolf.

With regard to Larisch and her state of panic: she was terrified that the role she played and the fact that she borrowed money from Rudolf would be exposed. She was also afraid for the personal safety of both Mary and Rudolf, as she had no doubt gained an insight into the fact that this was to be no ordinary rendez-vous.

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2010, 11:05:12 AM »
Nice to see you posting here again Greenowl !   8)


With regard to Larisch and her state of panic: she was terrified that the role she played and the fact that she borrowed money from Rudolf would be exposed. She was also afraid for the personal safety of both Mary and Rudolf, as she had no doubt gained an insight into the fact that this was to be no ordinary rendez-vous.


Perhaps, but remember the one question the Empress gave both Andrassy and Widerhofer to ask Larisch:  'Was Rudolph behaving normally the last time she saw him?'   Larisch replied, "No..........................."   Oops!  That's where the real crime was.  Considering her supposed relationship with the Empress and that the Empress had always told her Rudolf was "dangerous" then it should have behooved Marie Larisch to report this immediately to the Empress but she didn't.  She waited, and waited some more until she reported it to the Police Chief Krauss who was well known to be ineffectual when it came to doing anything concerning the Imperial Family.  

 

Right click and select "view image" to enlarge
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2010, 07:16:00 PM »
Should Marie Larisch have the last word on when Rudolph and Mary Vetsera first became acquainted?

In an earlier post we saw where K Schratt in letters told how an upset Stephanie told her she refused to go to  Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee in 1887 since she didn't want to have to witness Rudolph chasing after that school girl Mary Vetsera.   That was ~ 1.5 years before the official position on when they met.

In her book, My Own Affairs, Louise of Coburg stated that Rudolph and Vetsera's affair had lasted for 3 years.  Princess Louise also said that the emperor was so anxious for Rudolph to break it off with Mary Vetsera that he told Rudolph MV was his half-sister from an affair he'd had with her mother, but Rudolph just laughed it off.

In the book by Rudolph's private secretary "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolph", the author made this observation:  "Many of those who were prominent in the personal entourage of the Empress were Greek men and women; some of her ladies of honour, one of her private secretaries, her favorite reader, were all Levantine Greeks.  The Empress often invited Mary Vetsera as a young debutante to their Monday "Home Days"", where Rudolph was usually also present.  Elsewhere, the author made the remark that Home Days were for the Imperial Family only!

Now, going back a few more years -- in "The Lonely Empress" by Joan Haslip, Countess Festetics, Sisi's stuffy lady-in-waiting, did not approve of how Hélène  Vetsera was "in hot pursuit of the crown prince".  Festetics related how she laughingly told Rudolph "that the lady could make her assignations with His Imperial Highness elsewhere, but not in her drawing room" when Rudolph was attempting to get her to receive them together.  This book also described how Franz Joseph would tease Rudolph about the attentions of Hélène Vetsera and found it all amusing, whereas the Empress was mostly indifferent. 

Then in "My Past", Marie Larisch said the Empress introduced her to Hélène Vetsera, and this was when Larisch was still a teenager.  (Larisch and Rudolph were the same age).  The Empress told Larisch that "Rudolph was generally supposed to have found Hélène Vetsera extremely sympathetic when his thoughts first turned to love".  When does a boy's thoughts generally first turn to love -- around age 12 or 13?



By Golly!   I do think I see a resemblance.....



If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2010, 12:06:07 PM »
A little more about the impressions of Marie Larisch -- here's one of their first encounters as described in 'My Past':

"When he entered the room I experienced a curious feeling of uneasiness. Perhaps my subconscious self knew the danger which Rudolph was destined to become in my life, and my nervousness increased when I saw that he watched me narrowly out of the corners of his eyes. The Crown Prince sat next to me and commenced to tease me unmercifully, and, boy though he then was in years, he seemed to possess the intelligence of a man. He was handsome, and for some time I racked my brains to remember what wild animal he recalled to me, for he had a curious look not altogether human. Then, I knew—Rudolph reminded me of a wolf; his eyes blazed green at times, and he seemed almost ready to spring. "Was he as cruel as a wolf?" I wondered, and then an icy chill went down my spine as I recalled the Empress's words to me before dinner when I had gone to show her my pretty gown. "Marie," she had said, "to-night you will see Rudolph. I warn you against him, because he will turn on you if ever he gets the chance.""

             

And then years later, during the mess with Mary Vetsera when he was enlisting the help of Larisch:
Quote
"The maid, who looked flustered, said to me in an agitated whisper, "The Crown Prince is here," and the words were hardly out of her mouth when a tall figure, dressed in a military cloak, walked into my room. It was my cousin.

Rudolph had turned up the collar of his cloak; he wore his kepi well down over his eyes, and for some moments I stared at him in astonishment. Then he stepped forward and kissed my hand, saying as he did so, "I hope you 'll forgive this informal call, Marie." I was silent, and my cousin looked at me with his mocking smile."

Rudolf is usually referred to as tall -- I wonder how tall he was?   Anyway, here's the usual description of Rudolph as a tall, handsome and charming prince with impeccable manners -- but did it hide a soul of darkness combined with the ultimate in imperial arrogance?  

Later on at this same meeting was a most odd exchange:  http://tinyurl.com/2vjchem
Quote
Rudolph:  "You know all about the little Vetsera girl and myself?"

Larisch:  "I know something," I replied, at once on my guard.  "Well, perhaps I do, but I am not too sure."

Rudolph:  "I hope you don't imagine that this is a platonic friendship?" said the Prince, "because if you do I had better disillusion you at once. The affair is not at all innocent; in fact I'm in the devil of a mess in more ways than one............................

Now I have to wonder why would Rudolph assume Marie Larisch could think the affair between him and Marie Vetsera should be only platonic?  






« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 12:10:51 PM by Pezzazz »
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2010, 08:48:46 PM »
Your posts are very interesting to us who know very little about the case, Pezzazz! Great pictures of Rudolf, it's interesting that he was so handsome when his parents also were recognized as very good-looking. They were all too beautiful to be happy!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 08:50:32 PM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline Lucien

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7341
  • Courtier
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2010, 02:42:17 AM »
Schena buab,good-looking guy,yes,but as all the rest is told by Marie Larisch,a pain and chronical attentionseeker & gossip,
it's nothing more then shrug your shoulder material.Elisabeth,at a point,couldn't stand the woman for all the above reasons,
and showed that.Marie,in her writings,pretends she knew it all beforehand while she actually knew nothing.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 02:44:29 AM by Lucien »
Je Maintiendrai

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2010, 12:09:29 PM »
Your posts are very interesting to us who know very little about the case, Pezzazz! Great pictures of Rudolf, it's interesting that he was so handsome when his parents also were recognized as very good-looking....

Thank you for your kindness Фёдор Петрович.   It is a compelling mystery.

Schena buab!?   Yes you're right Lucien, Marie Larisch became a major problem for the Imperial Family.  One has to remember though that through no fault of her own, she was born into no-man's land.  She was the illegitimate daughter of the Empress's brother Ludwig Wilhelm, Duke in Bavaria and his actress girlfriend Henriette Mendel whom he later married morganatically.   Then the Empress wanted the young Marie with her in Austria -- partly for her horsemanship -- but it was a thoughtless arrangement that forever left Marie on the outside for all practical purposes.

Although Marie Larisch had beauty, brains, style, passion and was a bit of a wild child, her marriage prospects due to her birth were nil -- especially in the Austrian Court.  It's not hard reading between the lines to see that that Marie Larisch was probably in love with Rudolf, and under other circumstances, she might have been an ideal mate for him.  But there was to be no marriage for her to the Crown Prince.  In any case, Rudolf was duty-bound and he wanted to reach across the hated Germany and make an alliance with Belgium through marriage.  There was also to be no marriage to an archduke for Larisch and she was not permitted to even marry for love.  Instead Empress Elizabeth arranged a marriage for her niece with a dull but good-natured fellow in the hopes that he would not interfere with Marie's primary duty to be a companion to the Lonely Empress.  Needless to say, this all had to be a very bitter pill for Marie to swallow, and it was probably a mistake on the part of the Imperial Family to assume that Marie knew the score in its entirety.  

It is interesting that by the time of Marie's marriage, she had already come to dread black pearls.  The Empress didn't like to wear diamonds but she loved pearls, especially black pearls.  Here's an excerpt about this from her book My Past:  

Quote
The Empress gave a soiree for me in the evening before my wedding, and just as I was coming down the staircase, I met the Crown Prince Rudolph, who was going up. He stopped and informed me that I was the very person he wanted to see. "I have something to give you—here it is," and, as he spoke, he handed me a flat morocco case. "Open it," he added, "and tell me whether my little souvenir meets with your approval."

I opened the case, which contained a brooch set with an enormous black pearl. I started in dismay, for I have always had a dread of wearing black pearls.

My cousin asked:  "My dear Marie, you are making your own misfortune in life by this foolish marriage; do you not honestly think it is a very mad scheme? Surely it is only to please mamma?"


The Larisch marriage was not a happy one and before long Marie found herself in a clandestine affair with Henrich Baltazzi:



Before or after this there developed a close friendship between Marie Larisch and Baltazzi's sister Hélène Vetsera, Mary's mother.  

Now there's an alliance made in hell:  Marie Larisch -- compelled to find justice for the cruel loss of her marriage prospects, and the cunning and Ambitious Hélène Vetsera!  Thick as thieves, they later turned on each other, so it wasn't hard to see from where they were coming.

So the fire was neatly laid and the two women quickly realized the match to light the bon-fire to destroy the marriage and reputation of the Crown Prince was the stars in the eyes of the young Mary Vetsera whenever she looked at Rudolph who in turn was too much of a gentleman to ever say no to a lady.

Now one has to realistically consider the question:  did Mary Vetsera as a very young and rather plump and unattractive yet experienced coquette put a love spell on the great Lothario or was it in reality Shake Down Time where Rudolph found himself eternally unable to shake off the amorous attentions of Mary Vetsera?  



« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 12:17:49 PM by Pezzazz »
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2010, 12:28:50 PM »
Schena buab!?
You know so much about the Habsburgs I assumed you were Austrian. You are not?
Schena Buab = Schöner Bube = Handsome lad.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 12:39:04 PM by Фёдор Петрович »