Author Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 192104 times)

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2010, 05:30:43 PM »
Schena Buab = Schöner Bube kind of sounds like shining bubba - but I like handsome boy better.

No, obviously I don't speak the Austrian language.   ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7BVL_KPhtg
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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2010, 06:15:23 PM »
No, obviously I don't speak the Austrian language.   ;D
Schåde, des is solch a gmüetliche Språch: YouTube: Wie Behmen noch bi Est'raich war. :-)
(= Too bad, it's such a cozy language: YouTube: When Bohemia still belonged to Austria.)

Zua Koasers Zeitn... = Zu Kaisers Zeiten = In Emperor's Times =Back in the days of the ol' Emperor.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 06:28:00 PM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2010, 02:56:23 PM »
Here's where a nugget of truth is revealed despite the author's best efforts to keep it hidden:  In Larisch's My Past

Quote
I could not shake off a feeling of uneasiness...........................I was accustomed to be made use of by my various relations, but their intrigues were generally romantic and harmless, and, better still, soon over and as soon forgotten. But the Prince was not like my amorous family, and I had hitherto not played with fire.

I recalled Elizabeth's words, "Beware of Rudolph." The Empress no doubt had some good reason for warning me against her son. He was not to be trusted, she had said, and he could be a dangerous enemy.

Throughout this book, Larisch insists she is the innocent one, merely doing what Rudolph or Mary Vetsera ask of her out of her fondness for them.  But in the above quote Marie Larisch admits to playing a dangerous game with none other than Rudolph and Rudolph only.   She's not worried about getting scorched by anyone else -- not the Emperor/Empress/her husband/Mary's mother -- no, she only admits to playing with fire where Rudolph is concerned.  Of course, she doesn't say what kind of treacherous game she has been playing with him, but we probably have a good idea by now eh?  

What Larisch probably didn't realize was what an impossible position she put Rudolph in -- she probably assumed she'd never get caught, and if she did, he would probably understand.  But he didn't.   Between Marie Larisch, Hélène Vetsera and the demands of Mary Vetsera -- they got on the last nerve of the high-strung Rudolph.   Marie Larisch probably finally understood what she had done when the following happened at her last meeting with Rudolph:

Quote
The Prince violently put his hand over my mouth and dragged me back. " Do you want me to hurt you?" he asked with dreadful meaning in his voice..............................."Unless you swear to be quiet, I 'll kill you," hissed Rudolph.

He released my wrists, which he held as in a vice, and without another word he opened a drawer in his writing-table and took from it a little black revolver. He came to where I stood.

"Do you want me to shoot you ?" He caught me by the throat and pressed the weapon against my forehead.

So now it all makes sense -- why Marie Larisch was in a panic -- and why the Imperial Family banned her forever from court and from Austria.  
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 03:18:03 PM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2010, 12:08:03 PM »
For some reason this photo reminds me of the late great Prince of Grunge of Nirvana. 



I was surprised to see Rudolph was believed to have a true genius for the more grungy type of music ;)

Quote
Crown Prince Rudolph, was a composer of no
mean power and seemed at times to pour forth his entire soul in the
melodies which he coaxed from this instrument. Indeed he often sat at
the piano for hours, playing, in a manner indescribably expressive and
touching, airs improvised on the spur of the moment, which, while they
remained impressed on the minds and ears of those present, would seem
to fade at once from the memory of the prince himself. His was what
may be called a true genius for music

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/12548/pg12548.txt
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Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2010, 12:39:18 PM »
Tha image remind me of THIS

BTW, that image was of some play or costume party?

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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2010, 12:43:56 PM »
Wow, amazing picture! I do hope (but in another way I don't) that that is a theatre prop and not the real Crown of the Holy Roman Empire kept in the vaults of the Hofburg!

Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2010, 01:37:00 PM »
From what I remember it was for some parade in Vienna where Rudolph did this monariacal spoof. 

Here's another one from that same day I think:

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2010, 01:55:35 PM »
Nope, i think that s from a thematical ball. I ve seen images of other Habsburg in that kind of costumes.

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"...Пусть он землю бережет родную, А любовь Катюша сбережет....". Grand Duchess Ekaterina Fyodorovna to Grand Duke Georgiy Alexandrovich. 1914

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2010, 07:59:53 PM »
The St. Louis Medical Review, Volume 47 in 1903

Quote

A Marinette, Wisconsin, paper is authority for a.story to the effect that Professor Hoffman, who recently resigned from the faculty of the University of Iowa, is Crown Prince Rudolph of Austria, who was supposed to have killed himself fifteen years ago. Hoffman's resignation at the university was requested because he refused to reveal his identity after admitting that he was going under an assumed name. It is stated that "Professor Hoffman" visited in Menominee, Mich., at the home of a prominent woman who is a sister of the commander of an Austrian battleship. ' At the time that it was reported that the Crown Prince had killed him> self in Austria, it is asserted, a corpse resembling him was made use of at the funeral, while the prince disappeared from the Empire. It is further asserted that Hoffman, professor of medicine, is none other than Prince Rudolph. The Crown Prince was considered one of the leading natural scientists of Austria. The story in part is confirmed by Dr. Redelings, of Marinette, and Attorney B. J. Brown, of Menominee.

Below is a composite of all those actually named to be romantically associated with Rudolph.   Could Mary Vetsera have been so irresistible and singular that Rudolph became willing to do anything to be with her all the time? 


Right click and select "view image" to enlarge
   

Half the authorities on Rudolph's love life claim he did not love Mary Vetsera and the other half claim he did, but one thing they all agree on -- Rudolf was desperate to escape from this love affair. 

Here is how it is typically described:   "My Own Affairs" by Louise of Coburg

Quote
At Ambassador Reuss's reception in late January 1889:   Rudolph noticed me and leaving Stéphanie came straight up to me.  "She is there," he said without any preamble;  "ah, if somebody would only deliver me from her !"

"She" was Mary Vetsera, his mistress of the ardent face.  I, too, glanced at the seductress.  Two brilliant eyes met mine.  One word will describe her.  Mary was an imperial sultana, one who feared no other favourite, so sure was she of the power of her full and triumphant beauty, her deep black eyes, her cameo-like profile, her throat of a goddess, and her arresting sensual grace. 

She had altogether taken possession of Rudolph, and she longed for him to be able to marry her.  Their liaison had lasted for three years...............................At the soirée I was struck by my brother-in-law's state of nervous exhaustion but I thought it well to try and calm him by saying a word or two about Mary which would please him, so I remarked quite simply:  "She is very beautiful.".......................Rudolph left me without replying.  An instant later he returned and murmured:  "I simply cannot tear myself away from her."

It's quite interesting that Princess Louise wrote the above quote in her book published in 1921 and  ~15 years later her sister, the former Crown Princess Stephanie published her book which claimed without a doubt that Rudolf had never loved Mary Vetsera -- he was only using her. 

While it's entertaining to think that Rudolph might have escaped to America with his only true love, and the above journal article is a 2nd confirmation (or idea source?) of the 1937 book "He did not Die at Mayerling"  -- the practical problems with that make it seem highly unlikely.  A more prudent question might be exactly how desperate was Rudolph to escape from Mary and Why?  Exactly what did Mary Vetsera / her mother propose Rudolph should do with his wife in order to marry his mistress in the ultra-conservative and very Catholic Austria?   Could his frustration have led to an overwhelming infuriation?
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2010, 05:47:37 AM »
Unfortunately I have to qualify the remarks of Louise of Coburg about Rudolph and Mary Vetsera in the above post since in further reading of her book she is clearly filled with venom and bitterness against Stephanie.  "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudoph" also claimed Rudolph was hopelessly devoted to Mary Vetsera but then he was with MI so who knows about the political motive?  

The only other verification I can think of for this was in Larisch's My Past when she claimed the Baroness Vetsera asked her to tell  Rudolph something like ~~ if he was so in love with Mary, then maybe they could come to some kind of understanding.  But then in her Memorandum, the Baroness accused Larisch of extorting money from Rudolph, and so this might have merely been pay back.

So far, the best evidence I've seen about the true feelings of Rudolph for Mary Vetsera were in Fritz Judtmann's book where he said he saw telegrams from Rudolph to Mary and it was clear that although Rudolph was extremely polite and careful in his wording, he was truly trying to free himself of their relationship.  

Everyone does seem to agree though that both Rudolph and his father were quite anxious for him to break his ties with Mary Vetsera..................which leaves me wondering about the possibility that Mary Vetsera/her mother had sensitive information they might have been using against Rudolph?  
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Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2010, 05:58:57 AM »
Two handtinted images  from the era of Rudolf and Stephanie. Credits to Imagno archives





 

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"...Пусть он землю бережет родную, А любовь Катюша сбережет....". Grand Duchess Ekaterina Fyodorovna to Grand Duke Georgiy Alexandrovich. 1914

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2010, 12:52:02 PM »
Splendid Photos Katenka............many thanks.

A great little book I was reading last night, "Recollections of a Royal Governess" published in 1916, confirmed some  previous posts in this thread  and in part  #1 and knocked others.  The author impressed me as a straight shooter and was appointed as governess to little Erzi in 1889 soon after the events at Mayerling and stayed in that position until Erzi married.   

The 1st topic that was quite interesting and something I had wondered about when reading "He did not Die at Mayerling" was what did Rudolf's daughter say about it since no one could expect a young child to go along with any fabrication imposed by the highly censored Austrian court?  When she first saw her father on his funeral bed, Erzi insisted it was not her daddy, and she continued to insist he did not die at Meyerling at least up until the time she married.   Imagine that!  Of course the governess said everyone tried to tell little Erzi that was ridiculous but she would not listen.  Who knows?  Maybe it was the hysterical denial of a distressed child, or maybe not?  The governess was generally postive about Stephanie, but did say she seemed totally indifferent to the death of her husband.

Then she discussed something I found highly entertaining -- about "The Martyrdom of an Empress" discussed in Part 1 of this thread.  That book was first published anonymously in 1899, and then by Marguerite Cunliffe-Owen in later editions and she was a newspaper reporter in New York.  I always thought the book contained far too much personal detail of someone too close to and extremely devoted to the Empress to be written by any newspaper reporter who had never even met the Empress.  The royal governess said this book was written by none other than Ida Ferenczy,  appointed as a reader to the Empress in 1864 and who gained more intimacy and influence over the Empress than anyone else (according to Joan Haslip in The Lonely Empress)!    Because of this, many thought adverse influence, the Austrian Court hated Ida Ferenczy and as soon as the Empress died, Ferenczy was kicked out of the palace, so she wrote this book as revenge.  I do remember this book said that there was no way Rudolph could have killed Mary Vetsera because "he loved her more than life itself".   So I'll have to amend my previous conclusion that Rudolph really didn't love Mary Vetsera all that much since this is the best evidence I have seen yet on that subject.  However, I still maintain that for some mysterious reason, Rudolph was still desperate to end their relationship.

The other topic I found quite sad but had already suspected was there were many people, including Stephanie's own sister Princess Louise of Coburg, who were absolutely determined to blow up the marriage between Rudolph and Stephanie.  Every betrayal of the marriage by Rudolph, real or fabricated, was communicated to Stephanie, who chose not to believe her husband's repeated denials.

Finally though I haven't finished the book yet, she did mention some aspects of what happened at Mayerling that I have long suspected but have heretofore never seen in print anywhere else.   Freaky stuff.


The Royal Governess


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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2010, 01:53:26 PM »
Now, I had some catching up to do in this thread... I'm still inclined to believe the official take on the story. Rudolf was depressed and was only looking for a way out of this life, yet he was afraid and 'choose' Mary as his companion. Well, this might well be the truth and the suicide notes and letters can't be dismissed. Yet, I am intrigued by what Pezzaz brought up... I read in one book about Elisabeth that Rudolf and Mary had been meeting since 1887, and I dismissed it as a mistake, but there are so many sources who claim this.... What is up with this? Also, I believe Rudolf and Mary - or atleast Mary's family - were using each other. Mary might have been madly in love, but also she might have seen Rudolf as a way to reach higher in this life. And Rudolf might have seen her as a simple fling, and eventually as a means to get out of life. And I never read that Rudolf wanted to get away from Mary... Well, I have, but it is always assumed he wanted to protect her....(this all works fine with the Hungarian Plot).... But what if Rudolf and Mary were having problems in their relationship and things simply escalated at Mayerling? It's all speculation, just as the aborted pregnancy and the political assassination are, but the letters that were found.... And those that were written by Mary in the months before, claiming she would kill herself and that there was a pact with Rudolf? Can we dismiss these?...
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2010, 09:40:22 PM »
Imperial_Grounds -- An excellent (and affordable) book that thoroughly debunks the suicide theory is "The Mayerling Murders" 1969 by Victor Wolfson.

Here's a nice article about a guide's first-hand account of his relationship with Crown Prince Rudolph:

http://www.vlib.us/brugsch/chapter7.html     (Scroll down a bit)

Excerpts:
Quote
A special feature which I discovered with real pleasure in the character of the Crown Prince, and found confirmed daily, was the simplicity of his manners and expressing no wants, a rare quality of the great ones of the earth.

Quote
In his conversation the Crown Prince displayed intelligence, keenness and wit. At the same time, he maintained a calm which had to impress even the older man. When he found himself in official company, he suddenly changed his nature as though by magic; his entire bearing showed a stiff formality which otherwise was not at all characteristic of him.

Quote
Following a handwritten invitation of my princely patron, I took up my abode for a few weeks in the Prague castle, whereby I had the honor to have daily contact with the noble princely couple. In this way, I had the opportunity to learn to know both in their domestic life and to admire the cordiality of their mutual relations.

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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2010, 11:59:29 PM »
Quote
..................because Russian soldiers had disturbed the remains of the young Baroness Maria Vetsera, looking for jewels, her body was ordered exhumed, and the pathologists were unable to find evidence of a bullet wound in her skull. That led to exhuming Rudolph, and he showed no evidence of being shot either. [The pistol recovered at the time of the incident, all six rounds fired, did not belong to the Crown Prince.] Instead, according to recent reports, both died of blunt force trauma, with evidence that they attempted to defend themselves with their arms and hands against the blows which killed them.
http://www.eurohistory.com/mayerling.html

This is the 1st time I've heard that Rudolph was also exhumed & I have no access to the eurohistory.com site.   Was that a misprint?

http://www0.epinions.com/content_246576615044
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