Author Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 190152 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Imperial_Grounds

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
  • Your Memory Keeps Me Alive
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2010, 07:58:35 AM »
Hmmm.... This would work fine with the  theory that they were assassinated. However, can we verify the fact that Rudolf also was exhumed? I have not read it in any book and the Habsburgs never allowed it... As far as we know.
Learn To Live With My Darker Side

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2010, 08:26:30 PM »
Here's something about reading faces that can be quite entertaining and it works a lot of the time.   The right side is thought to be the socialized/controlled/acting side and the left side is the real/reacting/uncontrolled side.  It's a little hard to get any reading from a photo taken at an angle, so this is about the only straight-on one I could find for Rudolph:

Right click -- select view image -- then click on plus signal to enlarge:



The dichotomy of the images suggests a strong will and discipline by Rudolph.  

The left side also indicates a little dopey doper maybe, but from best I can tell from other photos, this was not his usual state.  It could be as Princess Catharine Radziwill claims in her "The Austrian Court from Within", that Mary Vetsera's "Oriental Methods" were actually some kind of Love Potion with which she was plying Rudolph to control him.  

Other than morphine and opium, amphetamines had just been synthesized a couple years before in 1887 Germany which had aphrodisiac powers along with inducing occasional psychotic breaks.


« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 08:34:40 PM by Pezzazz »
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2010, 05:39:16 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz_1w8OHDnU

Here's a recent video -- There seems to be a shortage of videos on this subject that aren't opera or ballet.
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Imperial_Grounds

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
  • Your Memory Keeps Me Alive
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2010, 07:48:03 AM »
Ballet; Opera? Musical, yes.... Guilty; even though there are vid's of mine with a popsong too though. 'Lostsplendor' is actually a friend of mine:p I haven't posted anything in months... Though I've got several projects on my sleeve.
Learn To Live With My Darker Side

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2010, 08:26:05 AM »
Oooooh!!  You do vids?   What's your name on youtube?  Lostsplendor did a great job -- it'd be wonderful to see more like that. 
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Carolath Habsburg

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4809
  • As seen on TUMBLR!
    • View Profile
    • Victorian & edwardian roleplay in spanish!
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2010, 08:37:53 AM »
i have serious conflicts with storical videos with modern soundtrack,, i must say. But this one is well done ( at least all the montage of images and astuff cause i heard the two first seconds and then i turned off the music)

Courtesy of Grand Duchess Ally

"...Пусть он землю бережет родную, А любовь Катюша сбережет....". Grand Duchess Ekaterina Fyodorovna to Grand Duke Georgiy Alexandrovich. 1914

Join the cause "We want an Ignore button

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2010, 10:29:28 AM »
Why so Katenka?   I love royal photos -- especially the ones assigned to history since they were all such great actors, and I love all kinds of music (except for rap and opera) so it seems a natural combination.   It's all in the timing and some of them are superb. 

What I have a serious conflict with are the movies that distort the history and characters, for example Catherine Deneuve as Mary Vetsera is truly painful to watch and Charles Boyer as Rudolph was equally as bad. 
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Carolath Habsburg

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4809
  • As seen on TUMBLR!
    • View Profile
    • Victorian & edwardian roleplay in spanish!
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2010, 10:33:59 AM »
Because i dont like it. i like all kind of music too but some modern tunes with antique royal videos dont mix well to me.

I rather see the video with no music at all to not screw it all.

Courtesy of Grand Duchess Ally

"...Пусть он землю бережет родную, А любовь Катюша сбережет....". Grand Duchess Ekaterina Fyodorovna to Grand Duke Georgiy Alexandrovich. 1914

Join the cause "We want an Ignore button

Offline Imperial_Grounds

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
  • Your Memory Keeps Me Alive
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2010, 12:13:15 PM »
Yup, I do video's... Whenever I work with pictures I tend to use instrumental music. There's one on Rudolf, several on the R'ovs and some on the way about Mayerling, Crown Princess Stephanie, Mary Vetsera and Empress Elisabeth... Don't know when I'll be able to finish though. Otherwise I use movies and series, fixing them with musical, pop, rock(nothing terribly heave though) and crossover(which is a crossover of vocal/classic/ballad/opera/pop/musical)... I'm quite versatile with music. And thus, I've done several with movies about Mayerling or other historical events.

My main vidding-channel is 'EsIstNurLiebe'. But we're straying our topic:p
Learn To Live With My Darker Side

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2010, 12:31:08 PM »
EsIstNurLiebe WOW.   I know it's off-topic so one last comment:   Your "Crown Prince - Before the Dawn" is absolutely exquisite. 
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Imperial_Grounds

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
  • Your Memory Keeps Me Alive
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #70 on: December 03, 2010, 01:15:06 PM »
Thank you... It was my first video with The Crown Prince too. I'd say, give me a friends add, if you like:p It's hard to find 'fans' out there, especially of historical series etc... But thanks.

And now, let's get on to solving a mystery...:p
Learn To Live With My Darker Side

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2010, 09:47:45 PM »
I do apologize Katenka -- I suppose that video does have some raunchy phrases.   Ignoring those however still makes for an excellent video and I suspect the romance between Rudolph and Stephanie, even if they were caught in a bad romance, is historically more accurate than the "pimping" of Mary Vetsera as romance.
---------------------------------------------

And now, let's get on to trying to solve a mystery...:p

Rudolph wasn't always Schöner Bube..........sometimes he looked more gawky and geeky than handsome.  The shrewd but caustic observer
Princess Catharine Radziwill in "The Austrian Court from Within"  knew Rudolph during his early 20s and wrote that he was ~~ decidedly ugly but
eminently attractive.  She also said that he refused to dance at the various balls given for him before he married Stephanie since he said he
didn't want anyone speculating about his romantic life.  



This doesn't sound like the makings of the great libertine Rudolph was suppose to be.  In fact Bombelles was assigned to Rudolph specifically
to make him more a "man of the world" since the not so good-looking Rudolph was more thrilled about science and politics than women, and
that could be most inconvenient to the camarilla assigned to maintaining the Status Quo of the monarchy.



As Rudolph grew older he became much better looking -- or perhaps he learned better how to be a master of disguise for photos.  Certainly in his later years all I've ever seen in his photos is a smooth cool charm that betrays no emotion.  However, in the photos here taken of the teenage Rudolph, he shows an
astonishing level of anger and impulsivity.  I can only describe this combination of above photos as giving the impression of dangerous.   Perhaps this is what his mother saw when she described Rudolph as dangerous, and she was suppose to know him better than anyone else.  Marie Larisch realized way to late, at least by the time she wrote her memoirs 25 yrs after Mayerling that she had been playing with fire.  Additionally, Fritz Judtmann in "Mayerling: The Facts Behind the Legend" wrote that Empress Eugénie had related how Empress Elizabeth also described her son as dangerous and unpredictable.

Given the fact that Marie Larisch was usually in financial straits from gambling (Police reports from Krauss in Das Mayerling Original), she was most likely blackmailing Rudolph for money.   Now the next question is with what (information) was she blackmailing Rudolph?  Interestingly enough, Francis Henry Gribble in his excellent book "The Life of the Emperor Francis Joseph" 1914, comes to a similar conclusion by a different method -- that Mary Vetsera was without a doubt blackmailing Rudolph.   But then Gribble speculates the source for this blackmail was that at sometime when drinking too much, Rudolph must have revealed to Mary Vetsera his plans of some coup for Hungarian Independence and promised to divorce Stephanie so he could marry again and crown Mary Vetsera as Queen of Hungary.  

There's a couple problems I have with Gribble's theory.   1)  By this time, Rudolph had become so accustomed to constant surveillance that he was extraordinarily careful about keeping his secrets private and covering his tracks.  He was paranoid -- and with good reason.  (see "My Life and History" by Berta Szeps).  There was no way he'd reveal such sensitive information to a young girl still under the control, at least in part, of people of questionable character.  2)  The entire Hungarian conspiracy was probably a red herring convenient for a lot of people including the imperial court.  One of the problems with this is that the 2 main proposed conspirators, Stephan (Pista) Count Karóly and Samuel Count Teleki von Szék, were nowhere near Mayerling that night as shown by telegrams (Fritz Judtmann in "Mayerling: The Facts Behind the Legend") and both remained on relatively good terms with the Emperor.  Similarly the suggestion by Larisch as well as certain court officials that it was John Orth who killed Rudolph because of some Hungarian conspiracy was again shown to be in error by Judtmann who displayed the telegram of condolence sent by Orth in his own handwriting from hundreds of miles away from Mayerling the afternoon of the deaths.

So by a process of attrition, with what are we left as fodder for an effective blackmail?  Keep in mind this must somehow involve Mary Vetsera.

Going back many years to when Rudolph was age 12 or 13, why was Heléne Vetsera, a sophisticated and married woman in her mid 20s, in hot pursuit of him -- a rather geeky and not very good looking boy who had other passions?  There's only one answer to that:  she was up to no-good with diabolical cunning.  But had the chickens finally come home to roost?  Remember in an earlier post in part 1 where it was related how in "Francis Joseph and his Court: from the Memoirs of Count Roger de Rességuier", the Emperor was carrying on affairs simultaneously with both Heléne Baltazzi and her younger sister, and each sister was led to believe they were his one and only mistress.   When they found out the truth, the younger sister drowned herself in the Danube and Heléne was quickly married to a newly created baron.  This experience did leave plenty of room for intent and plans of revenge, and what more effective plan than to evolve control over the vulnerable young son of the libertine Emperor?  

Rességuier was a child at the time of Mayerling and his mother was a lady of the court and his father was court chamberlain to Franz Joseph, so he wrote about what he heard.   One of his mother's friends was the unfortunate Countess Anastasia Wimpffen who accompanied Mary Vetsera to Mayerling on her last trip and who also died shortly afterward.  A Rességuier also married one of the sons of Archduchess Marie Valerie, but I'm not sure of the connection -- maybe a sister or cousin?

« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 09:57:34 PM by Pezzazz »
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2010, 09:48:48 PM »
The success of Heléne Vetsera in seducing the young Rudolph was for all intents and purposes confirmed by Countess Festetics, a lady-in-waiting to the Empress, according to Joan Haslip in "The Lonely Empress".   What leverage!  This increased 100-fold when the "little Vetsera" as Rudolph referred to Mary, was born during this time.  

A profitable point of view must have just fallen into place for both Marie Larisch and Heléne Vetsera when they became close as a result of Larisch's affair with one of Heléne's brothers and also because of their shared and bitter resentment of  the Emperor by one and of the Empress by the other as well as the desperate need by both women for money.  Putting the plan into action involved first the effective sabotage of the marriage between Stephanie and Rudolph, and they were most certainly helped in this aim by many others, probably including unwittingly the Empress herself who thought Rudolph needed some hygienic countess as was the custom in those days.  Stephanie was bombarded with tales of Rudolph's "misdeeds", and he was stressed, distracted and ultimately frustrated in trying to explain himself.  Next the trap was set for his seduction by an experienced coquette.  

In the days before DNA testing or blood tests, paternity was usually assumed to be that of the lawful husband, and that's how it was probably left for many years, and that may have been the truth.  Of course a mother could always be expected to have some authority on claims as to who the natural father really was and if Helene Vetsera chose to use this ace up her sleeve against Rudolph, it would be no less than a political catastrophe to tell the world he was having an affair with his own daughter.  Rudolph was not the kind of man to take this lying down, and now the stage is set for the explosion that finally occurred at Mayerling.  

« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 10:04:43 PM by Pezzazz »
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.

Offline Imperial_Grounds

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
  • Your Memory Keeps Me Alive
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2010, 04:59:30 PM »
I thought that Elisabeth reprimanded Helene on her courting the young heir.... And I don't believe that a teenage boy would concieve a child with a much older woman, atleast not in those days... It's too much. And Rudolf and Mary certainly weren't the romantic couple as they are portrayed to be, yet there was something that bound and killed them. Also, we must not forget Mary's fascination for Rudolf and the things she wrote.... Would she make all that up? Of course it is possible she did, either by conspiring with Rudolf and creating a web, to hide her own motivations for being with Rudolf or because she really believed Rudolf loved her so that he was willing to die for her(while it was actually she who, by the look of things, was willing to die for/with him).
Learn To Live With My Darker Side

Offline Pezzazz

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 203
    • View Profile
Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2010, 03:13:44 PM »

Agreed, it is too much.  For many reasons I don't believe Rudolph was the father of Mary Vetsera.   However, that is not the point.   What is important is did someone have the motive, means and opportunity to start a whisper campaign that would have destroyed Rudolph politically?  Someone with a reputation for being ambitious and cunning?  The answer to all 3 questions is yes.

1) Motive:   Yes,  Heléne Vetsera had motive for revenge if Franz Joseph had been two-timing her with her sister who subsequently killed herself according to Count Roger de Rességuier who has reasonable credibility.  Furthermore, Heléne Vetsera was in financial trouble according to Marie Larisch in "My Past" and also by evidence of her later financial instability after Mayerling.

2)   Means:  Yes, it was established by at least 2 independent sources that Heléne Vetsera and Rudolph had some kind of romantic liaison, and a child was born during this time.  Neither of Rudolph's parents seemed to mind this interlude.  It was Countess Festetics, lady-in-waiting to the Empress, who disapproved according to "The Lonely Empress".   The Empress also reportedly told Marie Larisch in "My Past" that Heléne Vetsera had been very kind to Rudolph when his thoughts first turned to love, which doesn't sound much like disapproval. 

3)  Opportunity:  Yes.  Years later, it was common knowledge that Rudolph was having an affair with the above mentioned child of Heléne Vetsera.

Finally, one has to ask why both the Emperor and Empress were so anxious for Rudolph to end his affair with Mary Vetsera when they winked at or ignored all of his reported affairs with other women?  Does anyone remember any reports of pressure on Rudolph to give up Mitzi Casper for example?  Rudolph's ADC in "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolph" claimed that the Emperor and Empress visited Rudolph many times reminding him to give up his affair with Mary Vetsera because it gave too much ammunition to his enemies.  Added to this milieu was the well-known newspaper war during the last months of Rudoph's life between him and Wilhelm II about who was really the most debauched (Frederic Morton in "A Nervous Splendor"). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad8PoqaFK-c&feature=related
If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.