The Alexander Palace Time Machine Discussion Forum
 
 User Info & Key Stats   
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
May 18, 2013, 01:08:50 AM
449192 Posts in 8703 Topics by 8187 Members
Latest Member: shvic300
News: We think Pallasart is the best web design company in Austin and for good reason - they make this forum possible! Looking for a website? Call them at 512 469-7454.
+  The Alexander Palace Time Machine Discussion Forum
|-+  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty
| |-+  The Habsburgs (Moderators: grandduchessella, Forum Admin, Svetabel, britt.25)
| | |-+  Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
  0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 13 Go Down Print
Author
Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 41199 times)
« on: October 14, 2010, 11:46:18 PM »
Svetabel Offline
Moderator
Velikye Knyaz
*****
Posts: 4727

View Profile

Part II

And a link to Part I

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=16484.585
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 12:43:53 AM by Svetabel » Logged
Reply #1
« on: October 16, 2010, 10:47:27 PM »
Pezzazz Offline
Boyar
**
Posts: 203

View Profile

Thanks for the new thread Svetabel -- I see the old one ended with 666 posts.   Does that mean we've left evil territory or headed into it?   Wink

Quote from: Imperial_Grounds
However, as I have stated many times, as long as there is no definite answer I do believe in the suicide-theory (that it was out of love and such is out of the question, I think, but not that the suicide happened.

The problem I have with the official position is  that they changed their story too often -- first death was by poisoning, then apoplexy and then heart failure before they settled on suicide.  Then they attempted to withhold any information about the presence of Mary Vetsera and fudged the autopsy results.  The Grand Duke of Tuscany never changed his story -- from the start to the end of his life.  I find it easier to trust someone with an impeccable reputation for honesty who states a direct observation than to believe second-hand hearsay and suicide notes and other documents that can be easily manufactured.  Grand Duke Ferdinand IV always maintained that  Rudolf's brain had glass shards sticking from it, Francis Joseph was in a state of shock the morning after, and that Rudolf's death had not been intentional.  

Not only were they willing to evade the truth before the official finding of suicide, but then many admitted in later letters that the truth was still not known:  (from Judtmann's book)

--The Emperor Francis Joseph to King Leopold II of the Belgians:  "Anything is better than the truth!"

--The Archduke Karl Ludwig in a letter to the Duchess Ludovika of Bavaria:  "The truth is so frightful that no-one can speak about it!"

--The Archduke Ludwig Viktor: "The whole truth is so frightful that one can never confess it."

--Prince Philipp of Coburg to his wife, the Princess Louise:  "...it is terrible, terrible!  I can't tell you anything about it!"

--Count Josef Hoyos to the Archduke Johann Salvator of Tuscany:  "His Highness is dead.  That is all I can say.  Do not ask me for details.  It is too frightful.  I have given the Emperor my word that I shall not say a word about what I have seen."

--Count Henrich Taaffee:  The son of Premier Eduard Count Taaffe said many years later that "the circumstances of the Mayerling affair are far worse than anyone imagines" and then would say no more.

--Hermann Widerhofer to Larisch in My Past:  "Dr. Widerhofer (court physician) was well accustomed to horrible sights in the exercise of his profession, 'but', he said, 'for the first time in my career I felt faint when Loschek threw aside the sheet which covered the basket.  There I saw the body of a woman -- nude except for a fine lawn and lace chemise, which had been pulled up over her head'..............."

--Leopold II of Belgium in a letter to his brother Philipp Count of Flanders:  "It is absolutely important to confirm and maintain the suicide version.  It may seem difficult in the eyes of our Catholic people to see a house with the views of the House of Habsburg insisting on the suicide version.  But suicide and disturbance of mind were the only way of avoiding an unheard-of scandal, the particulars of which I cannot entrust to my letter but which I shall relate to you in full detail.........."

--Dr. Heinrich Baron von Slatin, court secretary in the Lord Marshal's Office.   Slatin did the inventory for Rudolf's estate, and also was the one to write everything that the first and second commissions found at Mayerling:  "As a result, I had repeated contact with his domestic staff -- valets, hunt personnel, servants, etc............In consequence I gained a terrifying picture of the Crown Prince's nerve-racking way of life.  I do not wish to go into detail.........."

These men were all physicians and/or soldiers-hunters.  What could have been so unusual and frightening to them?

So considering the above, this once again brings me to the intrigue of the smashed door to Rudolf's bedroom which was on the ground floor.  According to both Loschek and Hoyos, there was some time that elapsed before they finally decided to smash in the door to find Rudolf and Vetsera dead on the bed in this ground floor bedroom.

However, Dr. Widerhofer, Henrich Taaffe and Grand Duke Ferdinand IV all indicated that Rudolf and Mary Vetsera were lying dead in the upstairs bedroom instead.  So what might this tell-tale smashed door be suggesting???









« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 10:57:27 PM by Pezzazz » Logged

If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Reply #2
« on: October 18, 2010, 12:43:35 PM »
Yelena Aleksandrovna Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
~Евгений Викторович Плющенко~ Posts: 3503

View Profile WWW

Mary Vetsera's portrait
Logged


Reply #3
« on: October 18, 2010, 04:11:10 PM »
Rani
Guest

Pezzazz, now you frightened me!
I wished some of them had made a hint or something else!


http://www.archive.org/stream/lastdaysofarchdu01gran#page/280/mode/2up


That´s interesting. According to some people from that region, he was "shot through the heart and from behind".
So if I murder myself, it would be very odd to shoot myself from behind.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 04:40:22 PM by Rani » Logged
Reply #4
« on: October 18, 2010, 04:43:42 PM »
Pezzazz Offline
Boyar
**
Posts: 203

View Profile

Rani -- the possibilities frighten me too.  There are quite a few hints about.   

Several books tell about how the Emperor and Empress contacted a psychic, Sister Catherine? if I remember right, about what happened to Rudolf since she had made a prediction about him a couple years before his death that if he didn't change, a great tragedy would occur.  In declining the 2nd request for a reading, Sister Catherine said something like ~~ "The information is there if they really want to know", so I'm guessing she assumed they did not really want to know the truth.
Logged

If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Reply #5
« on: October 18, 2010, 05:05:41 PM »
Rani
Guest

I think, too, that several people had an interest to destroy the house Habsburg.
And a link to Prussia isnīt false.
Logged
Reply #6
« on: October 19, 2010, 09:14:08 AM »
Pezzazz Offline
Boyar
**
Posts: 203

View Profile



Rudolph with some of his dogs.  He tended to accumulate 100s of them.
Logged

If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Reply #7
« on: October 19, 2010, 10:14:53 AM »
aor Offline
Boyar
**
Posts: 183

View Profile


Who is the author of this book? I see it is 'edited' by Hamilton Grant, but does this mean he is the author?? He spins quite a tale.......
Logged
Reply #8
« on: October 19, 2010, 11:15:33 AM »
Rani
Guest

At archive.org there a three books from him. This Rudolf book, one about Napoleon and one about spies.
I didn´t find any other infos about him.
Logged
Reply #9
« on: October 19, 2010, 11:56:09 AM »
Pezzazz Offline
Boyar
**
Posts: 203

View Profile

The book is probably by Lieutenant Victor Fritsche, Secretariat Chancellor in Rudolf's establishment.   According to Judtmann, he was bequeathed Rudolf's walking stick and cigar case by Stephanie.  I'm guessing it's him since the 2 other secretaries attached to Crown Prince Rudolf's household were much older than Rudolf, and the anonymous author of this book described himself as several years younger than Rudolf.

This book was written in 1916 before the death of Franz Joseph and in the middle of WWI so the allegations against Wilhelm II were quite bold.   It may not be all spin since towards the end he described how he caught a ride with Dr. Widerhofer to Mayerling the morning of the deaths.  Over 15 years later, Loschek's statement included the remark that "Widerhofer and a secretary" walked into the death room in Mayerling.

From ONB:  15 year old Rudolf had a hard time in getting his tie on straight!




Logged

If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Reply #10
« on: October 19, 2010, 12:34:14 PM »
Pezzazz Offline
Boyar
**
Posts: 203

View Profile

Crown Prince Rudolf at age 20:  Right click on "view image" to enlarge

Logged

If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Reply #11
« on: October 19, 2010, 01:29:42 PM »
Rani
Guest



Logged
Reply #12
« on: October 19, 2010, 02:04:46 PM »
Carolath Habsburg Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
As seen on TUMBLR! Posts: 4764

View Profile WWW

 

A nice portrait of him



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Logged


Courtesy of Grand Duchess Ally

"...Пусть он землю бережет родную, А любовь Катюша сбережет....". Grand Duchess Ekaterina Fyodorovna to Grand Duke Georgiy Alexandrovich. 1914

Join the cause "We want an Ignore button
Reply #13
« on: October 19, 2010, 02:09:34 PM »
Pezzazz Offline
Boyar
**
Posts: 203

View Profile

This must have been one of the last photos taken of Crown Prince Rudolf:



Logged

If the lessons of history teach us anything it is that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Reply #14
« on: October 20, 2010, 12:57:36 AM »
THERRY Offline
Graf
***
Cogli l'attimo Posts: 401

View Profile WWW

To contrast a picture of a young Rudolph

1870, By Emil Rabending, Vienna
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 13 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Website by Pallasart - Austin Web Design