Author Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 190575 times)

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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2010, 04:07:06 PM »
Someone should do a full scale investigation:p And what with the papers that were held by the Taaffe Family? The chance they still exist is slimm with the fire and Taafe's vow to the emperor to keep the Mayerling Episode as secret as possible. The final question is what is it that must remain hidden.... And what has Mary Vetsera to do with it.

I remember reading that Mary had an abortion, that Larisch was in on the scheme, just as Rudolf... It was in a Dutch book(had Rudolf's will and inventory too), someone who claimed he saw the papers - a grand-child of Taaffe, if I recall correctly - said that the papers claimed Mary was with child and that there was an abortion that went wrong.. Thus Rudolf could not live with the shame and choose death. I find this impossible to believe, however it is a fascinating account of events.

It was called "Het Mayerling Drama" by S. Van Der Werf.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 04:10:42 PM by Imperial_Grounds »
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2010, 11:37:36 AM »
Oh Pookah!  You would have had to mention those blasted Taaffe papers -- an exercise in frustration ;)  They were pursued in exhaustive detail by Fritz Judtmann in "Mayerling: The Facts Behind the Legend" who went after them like a blood hound.  His book sounds similar to your Dutch book. 

I'm going to relate what I remember off the top of my memory since I don't want to get too stuck in that quagmire again.  Judtmann followed the official trail of the Taaffe papers from when the Austrian premier Eduard Taaffe died in 1895 and left them to his son, Heinrich Taaffe, until the trail finally went cold in the late 1960s when his grandson, Edward Taaffe, died unexpectedly in Ireland with no direct heirs. 

What I found most interesting about the tale of the Taaffe papers is in how they demonstrate how to do an Austrian cover up, or rather cover-out, in how to confuse and confound by the dissemination of false information in an endless array of miss-clues.  For the first few years the son Heinrich Taaffe seemed to take little notice of the Taaffe papers, and then he started to make official documents as to their location -- to the national archives, to the Vatican, to other places............they all proved false, or some location would have reported only empty envelopes instead of the real papers.  Then he started to report the papers as destroyed, then they would turn up several years later, and then another report of them as having all burned, and then they would show up again in another official report several years later.  My guess is Heinrich Taaffe was probably inundated with 100s of requests for information about the Taaffe papers, hence the constant move and false leads.

Then sometime in the 1910s, he offered to let the granddaughter of  Baron Krauss, Austrian Police Chief at the time of Mayerling, read the papers -- before he planned to burn them all, or so he claimed.  This granddaughter, a Countess Wassilko, was a cousin of Heinrich Taaffe's wife. Countess Wassilko stayed up all night and read them all and since she was not asked to keep them a secret, she made a report to the media -- referred to as the Wassilko Protocol.  At the time it was thought this was Heinrich Taaffe's way of getting around his promise to keep the papers secret -- by letting someone else report on the big secrets.  Judtmann came to the conclusion that what the Krauss granddaughter read were just bogus papers, again designed to mislead and confuse.  After Heinrich Taaffe died, Judtmann talked with his widow who told him that keeping the Taaffe papers secret and intact was the single most important thing in her husband's life and he never even let her read them, so it is unlikely he let anyone else read the real papers.

The Wassilko Protocol is interesting though in that it gives a more plausible scenario even though it's mostly a rehash of already well-known rumors.  The first thing I noticed about her report was that the bodies were discovered upstairs, which agrees with other credible sources but contradicts the claims of both Hoyos and Loschek.  (more on that in some later post)  Then she said a police surgeon did autopsies on both bodies, which disagrees with the official position of one autopsy done on Rudolf by court physicians.  She said these autopsy reports showed Mary Vetsera was killed by a glancing shot to the carotid artery so she bled to death.  Then Rudolf shot himself through the mouth, thereby explaining the large exit wound on the top side of his head.   This suggests to me that the aim of this Wassilko Protocol was to show that Mary Vetsera was killed by accident and then Rudolf killed himself in remorse.  She also reported the police autopsy claimed Mary Vetsera was 3 to 5 months pregnant........but nothing about any botched abortion attempt.

What makes this a more plausible scenario than the official position is that it is a well-known fact that Rudolph was often waving a gun around and was careless with it.   He accidentally shot himself in the hand one time and his mother nursed him back to health over weeks/months (The Lonely Empress).  Another time, Rudolph would have (accidentally) shot his father except that one of the Emperor's aids moved to protect the Emperor at the last second and he was shot in the arm instead.  The Emperor was so angry with Rudolph over this incident that he didn't speak to him for weeks, and it was again left to the Empress to make peace between her husband and son. 

------------------------------

Then in 1929 Edward Taaffe inherited the Taaffe Secrets from his father and from remarks he made in his correspondence with Fritz Judtmann, it can be concluded that the Wasilko Protocol as well as the official version were only more diversions from the truth.  As has been stated so often by others, he wrote to Judtmann:  "It is, however, entirely correct that I said what my father publicly stated before me -- the circumstances of the Mayerling affair were far more frightful than was imagined."


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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2010, 12:11:21 PM »
...........................a little more on the 3rd Taaffe before getting into the gruesome details.   When the author Fritz Judtmann was corresponding with Taaffe in the mid 1960s, he told him that he still could not tell him anything about the papers although he was sorry about that since Judtmann was the first one he encountered who wanted to solve the mystery for purely scholarly purposes.   Hundreds of other people had begged or tried to trap or trick him into revealing the facts, either from curiosity or in order to make capital.  William Randolph Hearst had even offered him $2.5 million for information on the Taaffe papers.  Edward Taaffe said he had to refuse all because these were not his secrets to reveal, but he was merely keeping them in the capacity of trustee.  

The next question is -- if not for the name and reputation of the Taaffe family, then for whom were these secrets so meticulously kept?  This would seem to be answered by Baron von Mitis who claimed to see at least some version of the Taafee papers.  In his book "The Life of the Crown Prince Rudolph of Habsburg, with letters and documents found among his effects" Mitis states that:

Quote
The contemporaries of the tragedy of 1889, above all the family of the unfortunate Habsburg Prince, still enjoy the right of all living persons and are entitled to receive from an enlightened age that protection of their persons to which any other citizen of the world lays claim.  It cannot therefore be part of the purpose of the present investigations to illuminate the problem in all directions.

So it would seem at least up until the mid 1960s, the Habsburg family still wanted the events at Mayerling to be kept secret.  By this time both Stephanie and Erzi and Rudolph's sisters were dead, so that leaves maybe some of Rudolph's grandchildren and/or the Empress Zita and her family.  Rudolph's oldest grandchild, Prince Franz Joseph zu Windisch-Grätz, collaborated in the book, "The Mayerling Murders" where Wilhelm II, Otto Bismarck and the Catholic Church were blamed for the deaths at Mayerling.   Empress Zita accused Georges Clemenceau, a prime minister of France, as the one responsible.  

Thus it would seem that one or the other or both still wanted the real events at Mayerling to be kept secret, but they were willing to blame other public figures for these deaths with only weak circumstantial evidence to back up their claims?  It's difficult to even imagine that what could have happened at Mayerling would be so bad it could interfere with some beatification process a 100 years later!  

  
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 12:24:38 PM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2010, 03:46:07 PM »
I think that the Habsburg Family still wants to keep these events a secret... I've always wondere why. What is it that is more gruesome than the death of Europe's enlightened Prince and his young mistress....  And what has that mistress(Mary ofcourse) actually to do with all of it? I think she and Rudolf deserve to be cleared from blame(atleast if such is possible)... I still wonder why it is all these letters of Mary indicating something would happen, and their final letters, and Rudolf's will(in which he wrote that all letters from him and Mary, found in his quarters, should be burned). Could that all have been a cover-up?
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Offline violetta

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2010, 10:44:07 AM »
rudolf at  3




at 10



a few more pictures






Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #80 on: December 11, 2010, 02:49:43 PM »
Thank you Violetta for all the photos of the cute little Rudolph   ;D

I think that the Habsburg Family still wants to keep these events a secret... I've always wondered why................................I think she and Rudolf deserve to be cleared from blame (at least if such is possible).....

Of course the Habsburg Family still want to keep the events at Mayerling secret since the alternative says a lot worse about Rudolph.  I meant to say in my last post, that although there is compelling circumstantial evidence that Prussia may have been involved in Rudolph's death, the actual evidence is weak.  As could be expected, a state-sponsored killing wouldn't leave much evidence behind.

It seems though that someone certainly took their cues from the death 3 years earlier of Ludwig II of Bavaria.  Even though the doctors who declared him totally insane had never even met him, the label has remained -- as it has for Rudolph.   

Here's what his real doctor who knew Ludwig II from birth had to say about it:



http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F00B17F8355A1A738DDDAF0994DE405B8684F0D3

Sometimes there is a fine line between being stark raving mad or merely a little eccentric, and the problem is that the difference in potential is little understood, even today.  So someone can seem a little off at time, or have a "Bavarian Kink" as was noticed by many for Rudolph, and from there it's an easy jump, even by those who knew and loved him, to assume he might have the potential to "snap" and become a maniacal /psychotic killer totally devoid of reason. 

It would probably be hard for most of us / anyone to easily defend against some accusation of insanity.  It should be remembered though that all the labels of insanity applied to Rudolph were applied after Mayerling by those trying to make sense out of something which made no sense.

From everything I've read up to this point, I'm starting to believe it was a cover-up of a cover-up, making it extraordinarily complicated to understand.
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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #81 on: December 11, 2010, 05:33:27 PM »
Well.... I think the movie 'Le Secret De Mayerling' might be closer to the truth then we expect, and that is that Rudolf and Mary were assassinated.... Anything is possible, but those letters they wrote, and those found, that's what bothers me... Who would go to the lengths of fabricating all those? Anyhow, it was certainly no romantic story.... If Rudolf killed Mary he had his motives(maybe she herself did it?), maybe they were murdered, maybe Mary was even a part in a plan to kill Rudolf and herself killed in the process.... Though I find the last one a bit unlikely. But those letters, they trouble me the most, what is it with all the romance Mary is spreading? And she's mentioned a pact between her and Rudolf..... There has to be some base of truth in there.

And as for King Ludwig, another case I'm startled by, I don't think he was crazy... If he was then they should have given Elisabeth and Rudolf the same label. They just were different. What also wonders me is that Elisabeth was staying across the lake when Ludwig died... Was he able to reach her, did they plan on getting him out of custody... That is the theory a movie about Ludwig uses to explain the strange circumstances of his death.
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Offline Linnie

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #82 on: December 11, 2010, 05:37:22 PM »
Does Austria have an access to information act? Has anyone ever tried to make a formal request to the Austrian Governement about all documents and information held regarding Crown Prince Rudolph death?
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2010, 10:06:37 AM »
Linnie -- it's not a question of access of all the information held by the Austrian Government.   Many authors have had full access and a definitive work of Mayerling written in 1930 entitled "The life of the Crown Prince Rudolph of Habsburg, with letters and documents found among his effects" was by Baron von Mitis who was then head of the Austrian National Archives for many years.

The problem is so many of the critical papers about Mayerling have disappeared into private hands never to be seen again.  For example the Taaffe Papers which were the findings of the investigation immediately ordered by the Emperor are now probably in some unknown bank vault under some fictitious name somewhere in the world, put there by a man who died 40+ years ago.   

A large box of the police documents about the Mayerling events which disappeared from the National Archives was discovered in 1955 in the storage area of some German actor.  Who knows how they got there!?

..................Anything is possible, but those letters they wrote, and those found, that's what bothers me... Who would go to the lengths of fabricating all those? ...................................But those letters, they trouble me the most, what is it with all the romance Mary is spreading? And she's mentioned a pact between her and Rudolf..... There has to be some base of truth in there.

All the letters bother me too, but what I noticed most is there is not a single letter from Rudolph about this great romance -- they are all one-sided, all from Mary.  Further, forgeries were developed to a fine art back then.   That's one of the reasons for the common use of the sealing stamp with the messy wax -- to give some assurance the letter was not a forgery.

Here's a description of Mary Vetsera by Walburga, Lady Paget, wife of the English Ambassador to Austria at the time of Mayerling.  Lady Paget could be................perhaps considered a reflection of Austrian aristocracy thought at the time. 

Quote
The Crown Prince had for some months had a flirtation with Mdlle. Marie Vetsera, a pretty but very rapid girl.  It appears that this affair was promoted by Countess Larisch, the daughter of the Empress's eldest brother, who always puts me in mind of a man who keeps a circus............................I never liked her (Vetsera) on account of her flirtations with married men...............But how so silly a girl could have persuaded so clever a man as the Crown Prince of Austria to end his life in such a stupid, dirty, undignified, melodramatic way I cannot conceive.  I cannot see the logic..........It was not baffled love.  The fact is he was a maniac..............She always revolted me by her flirtations with such a man as Heini L. and Roman P., who could have only had one object............

Here's a photo of Lady Paget with her husband, Ambassador Augustus Paget: (taken from "Embassies of Other Days" 1923).  She kind of writes like she looks haha!








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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2010, 04:03:56 PM »
On account of Rudolf's letters.... He made clear in his will that all his letters to Mary, and hers to him, found in the Hofburg should be burned. This I remember clearly, as it was in "Het Drama Van Mayerling" and the author has printed his will, Mary's letters and his(found at Mayerling), it quotes Rudolf in his final letter to the Empress(on account of Countess Esterhazy? - she said that Rudolf was in a strange mood on all saints months earlier, that he too would be dead soon... What about this?), it quotes Mary's earlier letters, has an inventory of Rudolf's belongings - at the Hofburg, Laxenburg and Mayerling -, so we see supposedly what of Mary's belonging's were found. And in Rudolf's will, found at the Hofburg, he expressed the wish that all letters in the vault from both him and Mary should be burned(thus this would work with the pact, that they made arrangements, making sure traces of whatever went on would vanis....) The question is why would Rudolf and Mary want this. If their story would be a tragic romance, what's the harm in this becoming common knowledge... A political motive?
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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2010, 03:41:31 AM »
(on account of Countess Esterhazy? - she said that Rudolf was in a strange mood on all saints months earlier, that he too would be dead soon... What about this
Had to be Countess Festetics, if I'm correct....
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2010, 01:17:07 PM »
Below are some links to the farewell letters taken from "Mayerling: the Facts Behind the Legend".   Rudolph asked that the letters of Countess Larisch and the little Vetsera be destroyed -- nothing said about his own letters.  Maybe the letters in his desk in the Turkish Room in Vienna showed something other than a tragic romance and that is why they were to be destroyed?

If Rudolph was in a strange mood months earlier and predicted his own death -- it might have been that he'd heard from multiple sources that there was a serious plot forming to kill him.  

None of these suicide letters seem authentic to me.  If someone takes the time to write a suicide letter, they typically want to make the reason clear.   There's nothing like that in these.  The first thing I think of when reading that ~~his honor commands him to depart from this life, I wonder to whom goes the reward?  Is it the local Camarilla or Prussia, both of which believed the liberal and democratic ideals of Rudolph were a major threat to their existence.  


http://www.imageshugger.com/images/i6f0t4at1dybucaw2obc.jpg

2  
http://www.imageshugger.com/images/6409q34z7hkw443g6.jpg


http://www.imageshugger.com/images/p3jehttioqmyf2qjj8nn.jpg

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http://www.imageshugger.com/images/wql2zztdd2bzvh2olwdb.jpg


http://www.imageshugger.com/images/tz3o4eymqgc633g1l3fa.jpg

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http://oi56.tinypic.com/2yu0if8.jpg
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 01:20:30 PM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2010, 01:40:25 PM »
Mayerling: Facts Behind The Legend was one of the sources for "Het Drama Van Mayerling" and comparing the writings "Het Drama Van Mayerling" mostly copies "Mayerling: Facts Behind The Legend".... Wish I could read that book.

Well, as to why Rudolf wanted these letters destroyed... I have no idea. Also, as for Rudolf's letters to Mary... Maybe they were taken for the investigation after the tragedy, as I believe the Vetsera's little Palace/Mansion was searched in the days after("A Nervous Splendor" said this if I'm correct). Also, why did Helene go to the police claiming Mary was with Rudolf, that a letter from Mary was found claiming that she would float in the Dunaube within days. If only these letters could be photographed or something.

Well, I always believed there were sources working against Rudolf... Even his own father, who refused to see that his wife and their only son were more alike than he was with both of them, but would Franz really order Rudolf's "suicide"? That's too far-fetched, as for the Prussians and the Camarilla, they are a possible threat. And I find the Suicide notes quite strange too. Mary's letters are clear. Her reason was loving Rudolf, yet was she lured into it or did she have an alternate motive.... Or did anyone have one for framing her, and Rudolf, as for Rudolf... The letters indicate that Rudolf was in a terrible mental state and that something terrible had occured... Why else would only his death save his honor?
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2010, 09:24:43 AM »
...........................Also, as for Rudolf's letters to Mary... Maybe they were taken for the investigation after the tragedy.......................................

Well, I always believed there were sources working against Rudolf... Even his own father, who refused to see that his wife and their only son were more alike than he was with both of them, but would Franz really order Rudolf's "suicide"? ..................................


None of Rudolf's letters to Mary have ever surfaced since Marie Larisch always retrieved them as soon as Vetsera read them.  I suppose Rudolf insisted on this since he didn't trust the Vetseras to remain discreet.  

There were some who wanted it to look like there was total estrangement between Rudolph and his father, but I doubt it -- too much evidence to the contrary.

Here's a nice photo I don't recall seeing before of Rudolph following his parents.   Right click to select 'view image' and then the + sign to enlarge.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 09:26:44 AM by Pezzazz »
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Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2010, 11:23:21 AM »
Well, no real pictures(if you don't count the ones taken with his mother in Venice when he was still a toddler)... Which is a pity.

As for Larisch retrieving the letters... Really? Is there a source for this, other than Larisch herself?

Well, Franz and Rudolf probably had some understanding, but relationships in Royal Families in those days were almost always strained. So I don't think it's different here.
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