Author Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 130567 times)

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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #240 on: February 22, 2017, 07:57:17 PM »
This stuff didn't even make it into the book, owing to its length - just the number of people there. Unfortunately there is a LOT of this sort of interesting but extraneous information that while fascinating had to be cut - so we're happy and free to share it!

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #241 on: February 23, 2017, 09:01:08 AM »
Thanks Greg! By the way, how many pages will the book contain?

Cheers,
GREENOWL

Offline amelia

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #242 on: February 23, 2017, 11:38:01 AM »
Can't wait to read this book.
Eva McDonald

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #243 on: February 23, 2017, 08:05:55 PM »
Thanks for all the kind comments!  I'm not yet sure how many pages - we're still in basic editorial processes at the moment - I would guess it would be around 350 published, perhaps.

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #244 on: February 24, 2017, 03:17:08 AM »
Thanks for that information and best of luck with the editing.

Cheers,
(a very excited) GREENOWL

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #245 on: February 26, 2017, 04:19:53 PM »
Good luck from me as well in editing the book.


I have wondered, for how long the Prince was supposed to stay at Mayerling lodge, is there any evidence about his plans, how long did he plan to stay there? He didn't use to stay long when hunting, two days or so?

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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #246 on: February 26, 2017, 08:32:28 PM »
Originally he was to go around the first of February and stay for a few days (usually 2-3 at most was standard), but he changed his mind twice, as events unfolded between January 26-28, and thus made a decision to go out on January 28 - so abruptly that he still had two meetings left on his schedule for that Monday afternoon.

Hoyos and Coburg were asked to come from January 29-30, so Rudolf was supposed to be back in Vienna on Thursday, January 31.

The evidence about Mary, though, is quite different and it is apparent she only went to the lodge on the spur of the moment after Rudolf asked her to do so at their meeting at the Hofburg on the morning of January 28.

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #247 on: February 27, 2017, 02:33:01 PM »
Great answer, thank you.

Well, from all shown, he intentionally went there and intentionally invited her. I don't know whether he had ever gone with any other mistress so far outside the Vienna.  The whole thing seems to be covered-up, especially from officials and I doubt if the case was ever seriously investigated - the results from prince's (authentic) autopsy would say much more, if there exists anything like that.

But interesting, there were over 20 people present there, but only Loscheck and Hoyos right at crime scene, and their accounts differ.   

Anyway, I believe it was Rudolf's moment of weakness that led to tragedy. May those who passed rest in peace.
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #248 on: February 27, 2017, 09:29:41 PM »
Some of those who were there had relatives who later gave what they claimed were accounts passed on to them (this happened mainly in the 1930s-1950s).  But on the whole, these extra accounts (I think there might have been 3-4) were not from eye-witnesses, and made a number of highly contradictory claims (even contradicting themselves internally) that make their content suspect.

I would say, with some hesitation, that only Hoyos was close to telling the truth, but even there, we know he included erroneous information and also likely invented part of his story to protect himself, as hopefully we'll show in the book.

The real keys in attempting to reconstruct this (at least for us) were twofold: a full psychological analysis of Rudolf, Mary and those around them (thankfully we had a forensic psychologist who had consulted with the prosecution in the Jody Arias murder case to go over everything in detail), and the forensic details surrounding the deaths. Although I don't necessarily find her that sympathetic, my opinion of Mary has changed, because she was being used and victimized by everyone (Rudolf, her mother, Larisch, etc.).  And she was, after all, a 17-year-old girl, immature and full of misplaced romantic notions that would never have occurred to the jaded Rudolf.

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #249 on: March 16, 2017, 07:13:36 AM »
I just have to ask a question : Did the Crown Prince (after waking up) have a breakfast on that morning 30th January, then came back to the bedroom or he didn't wake up at all in the morning?

I feel like being Mr. Hercule Poirot with these detailed questions. :D (Sorry for topic-off).

Also, I again find te list of the people who were present great. When the lodge was converted into a monastery, in the next, 1890?
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #250 on: March 16, 2017, 10:08:29 PM »
Hi Nena,

No breakfast.  According to Loschek, Rudolf came out of his room at 6:10AM briefly and asked Loschek to order breakfast.  Rudolf then went back inside, and Loschek started to go out of the lodge and cross the courtyard to the kitchen when he claimed to have heard two gunshots.  This last assertion is highly unlikely.

Franz Josef ordered the lodge turned into a monastery 22 days after Rudolf's death, but construction went on for several years. The main work on the chapel was finished in November and Franz Josef, Sisi, and Marie Valerie attended a memorial service there on the first anniversary in 1890.  But construction continued over the next few years, so that the building is basically unrecognizable and only a couple of servants rooms remain as they were.

Offline Joanna

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #251 on: March 20, 2017, 10:18:53 AM »
It was interesting to read Alexander Polovtsov's diary on the death of Rudolf. It is difficult though to ascertain if he continues to refer to the Grand Duke's comments or if he had other sources to explain connection of Jesuits.

Joanna

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #252 on: March 20, 2017, 03:35:54 PM »
  This last assertion is highly unlikely.
Really? Interesting.

Quote
The main work on the chapel was finished in November and Franz Josef, Sisi, and Marie Valerie attended a memorial service there on the first anniversary in 1890.
No Crown Princess Stephanie? Sad.
Quote
But construction continued over the next few years, so that the building is basically unrecognizable and only a couple of servants rooms remain as they were.
I am agreed.

Anyway, so many interesting details are about to be uncovered in book and I am glad about it. However, I am curious about autopsy (There was one on Crown Prince, right?) - I can imagine that many things might have been covered up by the officials. 

In October 2013, I was just 500 m near Mayerling where the tragedy occurred, I took a photo from the car, you can see names of two fateful places on the 'table' : Mayerling and Alland. Alland is the place Mary Vetsera mentioned in her farewell letter, wishing to be buried in Alland's graveyard.

-Ars longa, vita brevis -
Mathematics, art and history in ♥

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #253 on: March 20, 2017, 08:52:52 PM »
Hi Joanna,

Now I'm curious...what was said (if you can share)? Of course the rumors were rampant and among them were that Rudolf was killed by this or that faction (political/religious/foreign) to remove him for some bigger purpose.  Personally I think such theories give Rudolf far too much credit as someone who could have even remotely succeeded on the throne.

Best,

Greg

It was interesting to read Alexander Polovtsov's diary on the death of Rudolf. It is difficult though to ascertain if he continues to refer to the Grand Duke's comments or if he had other sources to explain connection of Jesuits.

Joanna

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #254 on: March 20, 2017, 08:58:59 PM »
Hi Nena,

As I think we'll hopefully explain and show, Loschek really was not a reliable witness, especially given that he didn't write his memoirs until nearly 30 years later.  What he meant to do was protect himself, we think, from charges of complicity or incompetence.

Stephanie was at Miramar with Erszi for the first anniversary - no surprise given how Sisi treated her after Rudolf's death.  She simply did not want to be around the Habsburgs and suffer their snide remarks and condemnatory looks, as if she was to blame for what happened.

There was indeed an autopsy but only a short segment released to the press - meant to "prove" that Rudolf was not sane at the time of his death - was ever released.  The original if it survives is probably with those enigmatic Taaffe papers, which are an exercise in frustration as every other author on Mayerling found out.