Author Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 142150 times)

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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #270 on: November 04, 2017, 09:23:55 PM »
I think the UK release is early December - US is November 16 if I recall correctly.

To the best of my knowledge, none of Rudolf's dogs were found dead at the lodge - definitely sounds like the remnants of some conspiracy theory!

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #271 on: November 05, 2017, 02:11:19 AM »
Thanks - my Christmas reading then.

Ann

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #272 on: November 05, 2017, 03:44:06 AM »
That probably applies to Germany as well, but for some reason I had December (and Christmas) in mind since I first heard about the book, so I am not too disappointed about having to wait for an extra four weeks!

Cheers,
GREENOWL

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #273 on: February 04, 2018, 05:57:06 AM »
I bought the book and read it within a week or less, today I finished it. Accidentally or not, I started reading it on January 29th 2018.
It left me stunned -- it has widened my knowledge and I have learned a lot about the Crown Prince and the whole Mayerling affair. Especially all those details! 

Having looked at Vetsera sisters' photo, I noticed that the two sisters had completely different facial features, for almost sure I could recognize Albin Vetsera's feautures at Hanna and Helene Vetsera's features in Mary. That's has always been my notice. Like if Mary wasn't Albin's daughter. And I have always found Loscheck's story on hearing two shots one after another very suspicious/unlikely. Now I am almost sure of my previous thesis that no third persona was present on the fateful night January 29/30th.

I must admit that, after reading book, I felt sorry for both of Rudolf and Mary - at the end, they were only human beings. Yet psychologically damaged and under influence of all the people surrounding them. Rudolf certainly had had loveless childhood and had been misunderstood throughout his youth and early adulthood, his ideas and visions had not been taken seriously. 

Well done, I completely love the new view/conclusion (based on psychological analysis and very scarce evidence/testimonies) of what happened between them two in that locked Rudolf's room within snow-bounded lodge.  I love how the lodge is depicted, I wish it still existed. You can find the lodge's plans and its reconstructions on the Internet.   

Well done Mr King, Penny Wilson and the others,  the book is highly recommended, for putting your time and effort in chronologically re-collecting the events.

I found that Rudolf visited my homeland, Serbia, along with Crown Princess Stephanie - in 1884.
 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 05:58:44 AM by nena »
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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #274 on: February 07, 2018, 03:09:05 PM »
I read the book at Christmas and would totally recommend it. I find the conclusion in Chapter 19 very plausible and I noted one interesting fact that has been glossed over or disregarded in other publications on the subject. However, I want to read the chapter again before commenting on it (and I also don't wish to spoil the book for those who have not yet had the pleasure of reading it).

The book highlights the shocking fact that although so many members of the imperial family were aware of the Crown Prince's mental state and were even afraid of him, no action was taken and when Crown Princess Stephanie mentioned it she was ignored and made to feel that she had done something wrong.

Cheers,
GREENOWL

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #275 on: February 07, 2018, 08:23:59 PM »
Thanks Nena and Greenowl, I'm so glad you enjoyed it.  Feel free to ask any questions!

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #276 on: February 08, 2018, 02:48:53 AM »
I have just finished reading the book and was very impressed. The conclusion is realistic, giving a detailed context for murder and suicide, and all the conspiracy theories are comprehensively debunked.

Ann

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #277 on: February 09, 2018, 01:05:19 AM »
I have a question in fact -- from what we read in Mary Vetsera's farewell letters, we many conclude that she was completely aware of what is going of happen, that she willingly goes to death? Is that correct?
----------------------------------------------------------

For those who want to know more :

Hunting lodge at Mayerling was officially opened on October 19th ad 20th 1887 (had been previously bought in 1886 by Crown Prince), and since November 1887 up to January 1889 only ten hunting's were performed. Rudolf's wife and daughter also visited lodge in June in 1888.  Crown Princess Stephanie described the interior of the lodge. I wish we knew more on lodge's 1st floor, there were Stephanie's rooms?


After his son's death, Emperor Franz Joseph visited the Carmelitian monastery only 8 times while the Empress did it 4 times. Emperor outlived his son for 27 years but visited the place only 8 times, as  if he wanted to forget everything.
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #278 on: February 09, 2018, 10:01:02 PM »
We think (although everything is of course speculative) that the evidence indicates she went to the lodge with no idea that she was going to die.  At the lodge on the night of January 29 when she learned everything had fallen apart and Rudolf wanted to send her away, she decided she would die with him.  And of course we then think that he tried to get her to leave and that her death wasn't something he wanted but which happened on the spur of the moment.  She was prepared to die, but Rudolf wasn't prepared to have her die with him, or even have her remain with him at the lodge.

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #279 on: February 19, 2018, 01:36:23 AM »
I see. Thanks. 

But one thing is pretty weird - given the fact Rudolf killed Mary and got up something after six to order a breakfast, how come that Losheck didn't see him (Prince) being blood-shattered? I mean, them two talked. Maybe he washed himself in toilet? Or simply Loscheck didn't tell the whole story, that's.
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #280 on: February 19, 2018, 04:07:39 AM »
The book does strongly suggest that Loscheck did not tell the whole truth.

Loscheck claimed to have heard two shoots some time after he met Rudolf shortly after six, but rigor mortis showed that Mary had already been dead for several hours before the bodies were found. So the first shot was fired some time during the night. How was it that Loscheck did not hear it (a revolver shot in the same building is quite enough to wake someone up), or, if he heard it, did not get up to investigate?

Ann

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #281 on: February 19, 2018, 04:17:06 AM »
From what I have understood, he indeed heard it - the first shot killing Mary! But Rudolf might have persuaded him that he accidentally fired the revolver, calming Loscheck that everything is fine. 
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #282 on: February 19, 2018, 08:05:27 PM »
Not to get too graphic but with Rudolf, per a forensics specialist, leaning over at the left edge of the book, extending his arm out to point the gun at an upright Mary on the right side, he was far enough back that the blow back of blood or brain tissue that might have speckled him was minimal - perhaps some on the cuff of his jacket but the velocity of the shot was so rapid that it would have Mary hurling back against the headboard and then most of the damage came when the bullet exited the head on the right side of her head (the side away from Rudolf)

So not likely that he would have been covered in blood.  And yes, the Loscheck problem - one just never knows how much to believe of what he said, especially as he is so often contradicted by the facts!

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #283 on: February 20, 2018, 06:44:03 AM »
I see, thanks. How about Friedrich Wolf's account -- it is brief but it depicts that Rudolf's room was all in chaos, saying how Rudolf and Mary died while fighting/and someone third killed her. I know that's untrue but I am asking about his account on the tragedy. 
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #284 on: February 21, 2018, 09:44:10 PM »
Well, there are some serious problems with Wolfe.  First, he waited until 1942 to say anything, so many years after many involved people were arguing what had happened in the press.  Then in his statement he claimed that he had told this same story "many times" to others, yet we couldn't find any record of someone repeating it.  Third, he claimed that he was on his way to the lodge on the morning of January 30 to polish the floors IN ADVANCE of Rudolf's arrival, when in fact Rudolf had been there two days.  He also claimed that he "heard the truth of what happened from others," suggesting he was relying on a fair bit of gossip.  He said it was roughly two weeks after the deaths that he supposedly saw the bedroom.  Now Court Commissioner Heinrich Slatin had done an inventory and assessment of the room on January 30 and 31, and he recorded no bloodstains splattered around the room, no bullet holes, no smashed furniture, etc.  You could dismiss him as part of some conspiracy but just stop to think about how illogical Wolf's claim is: the court is desperate to cover up the truth of what happened, but they don't do anything to clean up evidence of violence in the room for two weeks, then ask Wolf -- certainly not a trusted courtier -- to come in and clean it all up.  Do we really think the Imperial Court would have left the room in such a condition for two weeks if they were engaged in a conspiracy other than hiding that Rudolf had killed Mary?  Or that they would let some provincial carpenter in to do the clean up?  It makes no sense.  Then, too, Wolf insists that Rudolf and Mary were killed at the same time, taken by surprise by assassins - so what of the suicide notes?  What of the differences in their times of death?  Unfortunately Mayerling is full of this sort of thing - it's going through the looking glass where many people claim things that just don't hold up!