Author Topic: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska  (Read 228560 times)

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Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2004, 09:32:55 AM »
Lisa is right - they didn't know them as well as Gleb would have liked people to assume.  Botkin kept them away from the family on purpose.  I don't know if Gleb saw the girls in person more than 4 or 5 times over 5 years - and these meetings weren't long.

Gleb was down on his luck when he met up with Anna Anderson.  Sudeenly everything changed for him.  I think he hoped it was her at first but then realised she was a fraud (remember he even admits her inability to speak Russian bothered him). After discovering the truth he 'stayed on the bandwagon' - what choice did he have?  Imagine the embarassment and ruin that would have come if he had admitted he had been wrong?

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

Janet Whitcomb

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2004, 11:51:52 AM »
But apparently he never told his daughter of his misgivings; I remember, from a documentary, her shock and disbelief upon hearing that Anna Anderson's DNA did not match.

To followup, did Dr. Botkin keep his children separate from the royal children for professional reasons? And is the story about the children's interest in Gleb's drawings just a story?

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2004, 12:21:19 PM »
Janet:

I have "The Real Romanovs" by Gleb Botkin and I read his accounts of his meetings as he states them - there were hardly any.  Maybe somebody can dispute this if they want and show us evidence of more meetings.

It seems most of his information was passed to him by his father and others.

Tatiana Botkina Melnik may be different - I don't have her book.  Maybe somebody who has it can tell us what she says.

It's interesting what you say about the pictures - I hadn't thought of that.

Dr. Botkin is hard for me to figure out - maybe somebody else can comment on him and his relationship with the Imperial family and his own.

Bob

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by BobAtchison »

Janet Whitcomb

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2004, 01:04:26 PM »
Yes, I hope those who have read Tatiana Botkin's memoirs can provide more information.

According to a documentary, the last message sent from the Romanovs was a quickly penciled note from Olga, sending Easter greetings to Tatiana and also some eggs.

The Fate of the Romanovs does provide some interesting information about Dr. Botkin.  He appears to have been a conscientious and compassionate man who did not always have an easy life.

Peter Kurth

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2004, 10:48:26 PM »
Lisa -- you don't know enough scientists.  All kinds of scientists have and continue to question these results, largely on the basis of chain of custody of both the Ekaterinburg bones and the various Anna Anderson hair, blood and tissue samples.  Science -- even DNA science -- is not static.  It is fluid, and it is always, constantly revised.  There is no exception to this, as any honest scientist will tell you.

I wouldn't butt in here, and I doubt that Rob will allow my post, but my name does come up rather a lot whenever the subject of AA is raised.  I'm not concerned about anyone's *opinion* regarding her claim -- but when it comes to the actual details of the case, and what is soundly, plainly and forever on the record -- well, I'd be remiss not to pipe up.  I'm sure you understand this.  pk


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The scientist who posts here will try to tell you that because no one has published the results of her mtDNA testing, that the results of her privately funded test are invalid. You know, I never realized that publishing test results that powerful! Seriously, no scientist that I know questions these results.


Janet Whitcomb

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2004, 10:57:00 PM »
It's great to know that you are also checking into this site, Mr. Kurth!  I continue to enjoy your fascinating books about the last Romanovs, in particular the beautiful pictoral with the equally wonderful copy. (Having been to Livadia, I was thrilled to see its prominent inclusion!)  And regarding the student who has asked for our help in suggesting references for a research paper about the mystery of Anastasia, I am sure we will all be recommending your excellent materials on that subject.  

Peter Kurth

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2004, 11:07:02 PM »
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Well, she managed to live in a fairly comfortable style for 62 years without working, and also to be treated as "royalty" by many -including people sending her money orders she never cashed. I guess many people around the world would beg for half what she received. May be her last years were very sad, but mostly due to the way she treated people.


Peter Kurth

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2004, 11:20:12 PM »
Actually, we know a great deal about Franziska's life before 1920 -- much more than has yet been published -- and we also know that none of her brothers and sisters understood a word of Russian when it was spoken to them.  If Franziska, in her various jobs as a farmer, a waitress and an assembly-line worker in a munitions plant, picked up other languages than German and the "Kaschoubian" dialect (*not* Polish!) of her childhood, it is nowhere on the record, and would belong in the same category, I guess, as the linguistic capacity of a lover I once had in Brussels, who worked as a telephone operator at the European Parliament and learned 5 or 6 languages badly, "in bed."

One day, someone may explain how "Franziska Schanzkowska" could play the piano without sheet music & speak fluent English, without lessons, after a single week on board the SS Berengaria, traveling from Cherbourg to New York.  But I doubt they will.  pk

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We don't know much about Franziska's life before 1920, do we? She may have learned some English in Berlin before jumping to the Landwehr Canal, and even some French. I have met waiters who speak 3 or 4 languages and can't even write properly their own. As far as I know, she was from a region where she may have heard Russian often -so she could have been able to understand the language, but not to speak it.

Peter Kurth

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2004, 11:22:28 PM »
Bob -- I defy you!  I doubt you have met "many" Polish factory workers at all.  pk


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I must say I have met many Polish factory workers that speak more than one language - I think back then you had to know at least two or three depending on where you lived and which great power was occupying you...  poor Poland!

Bob


Peter Kurth

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2004, 11:23:39 PM »
On the other hand, "Anna Anderson" *did* know what they were talking about -- that's the whole point.  pk


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Bob,
I know the feeling !  My grandmothers spoke Russian or Greek- but NOT to us ! We never really knew what they were talking about !


Peter Kurth

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2004, 11:31:08 PM »
OK, I'm going to stop after this.  But don't misquote me, Lisa.  In my preface to "Anastasia," I did say it was a story about emigres, "blinded by their need for a miracle."  But I also said it was the story of a family, namely the Romanovs, who were (and are) "unable to speak an open word to one another," no matter what the issue or what the stakes.  I will also say that my experience of this case over 37 years has shown me that the overwhelming majority of people, Russian or otherwise, are "in denial" in the other direction than you think -- that is, they are SO traumatized, so suspicious, and so "grief-stricken" that they'd rather eat bugs for breakfast than admit that AA might have been genuine.  It was exactly among Russian emigres that she found her fiercest opponents, and exactly there, too, that the fewest number of people ever bothered to lay eyes on her.

Harumph.

pk


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I've always believed so many people believed AA because the idea that the entire Imperial Family was murdered was so difficult for the Russian emigre community to fathom. Denial as we now know is a necessary part of the grieving process. Peter Kurth tells us the story of Anastasia is really a story of emigres and he is right.


Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2004, 09:49:55 AM »
Anna Anderson has been proven to be a fraud - she was not Anastasia.  The case is closed on her.  It's over.

Bob

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2004, 10:11:32 AM »
Peter
As long as you refrain from personal attacks against others, watch your language (children come in here) and remain respectful of differing opinions, you are free to participate here.
FA

Offline Namarolf

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2004, 01:10:17 PM »
Thanks Mr. Kurth, I guess I should ammend my post saying it is "me" (and not "us") who doesn't know much about Franziska's life before 1920.

It was funny reading about your Brussels lover linguistic talents -but may be Franziska had more language skills than her? With due respect to your friend, may be she was not as good as Franziska may have been concerning foreign languages. But anyway, I guess there is no confirmed reference to Franziska's knowledge of English or French before 1920, not to talk about playing the piano without sheet music.

If Mrs. Tchaikovski was not Franziska nor Anastasia, you have some idea of who may she had been?


Anyway, thanks for your time and my admiration for being so loyal and devoted to Mrs. Anderson -even after her death and when most people no longer believe she was who she said.


Janet Whitcomb

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Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2004, 03:03:47 PM »
One of the reasons I first became interested in the Romanovs was due to the mystery of Anastasia.  I read as much as possible about the subject, and for some time I was 50/50 re: whether she had survived or not.

I happen to think photos of  Anna Anderson Manahan do, on occasion, bear resembalance to the young Anastasia and/or her relatives. I'm also taking into consideration that people can age to the point that they hardly resemble who they once were.  

However, I do respect the DNA test.  I am very certain, from what I have read and also observed in documentaries, that the bones now resting at Peter and Paul Fortress are those of the prisoners at Ekaterinberg.  As for what happened to the bodies of Alexei and Marie or Anastasia . . . good question.  

In short, while I am almost completely convinced that Mrs. Manahan was not Anastasia, it will be interesting to "stand by" for additional discoveries and tests.