Author Topic: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast  (Read 9633 times)

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Offline bkohatl

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A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« on: January 08, 2011, 08:41:40 PM »
With all the wonderful pictures of the family camping and lunching along the Baltic/Finnish Coast while cruising on the Standart, has anyone ever tried to track these voyages and excavate any remnants or artifacts from their visits.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 12:42:51 PM »
See this thread, for a review of a great book that has detailled descriptions and maps of the areas in question, in case you want to go to the Bay of Shtandart (on the western, Finnish coast of Virolahti Bay / Vederlax Fjärd close to the Finnish-Russian border) yourself and do some excavating. The book did not mention any artifacts or other non-official traces of the IF's family's visits being excavated or found so far.

Offline bkohatl

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Re: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2011, 03:40:23 PM »
Thanks, that is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I remember reading about Nicholas's efforts to avoid World War I and thinking, like Barbara Tuchman, that he was the only one who was right. World War I was not the Great War, it was the Useless, Unecessary War/Tragedy.
I read the terms the Kaiser offered France, Russia and England after his initial victories, which proved that this was truly his war. He had no interest in peace; he  wanted everything and didn't care about the cost. Then sending Lenin to Russia. A right-wing Monarchist started the Russian Communist Revolution. Amazing.
My attitude towards World War I, is best expressed by the death George Archer-Shee. He was the 14-year-old boy accused of stealing a 15 shilling Royal Postal money order while training as a Cadet at Osborne Naval College on the Isle of Wight.  George was discharged from the college and his future destroyed.
His father asked George if he did it and George said no. George's father appealed the dismissal saying my son doesn't lie and he doesn't steal. His father mortgaged his home and spent his life savings defending his son's honor. At every step, the Archer-Shees were accused of betraying their country, of betraying their King, merely for defending their son.
Finally, George won his appeal, the verdict was overturned by the Admiralty and George was allowed to transfer Sonyhurst College and complete his education.  George ARcher-Shee fell at the First Battle of Ypres age 19 and lies buried in an unmarked grave.
When I think of World War I, I think of George and his Dad. One of the greatest fathers any boy ever had. He had raised an honorable son and stood by him, whatever the cost. That always reminds me of Nicolas. Whatever you think of him as Czar(Tsar), he was one of the world's great fathers. And as for being Czar, by trying to stop World War I he was one of the few who saw reality, no chauvanistic patriotism, not the grandeur of conquest. If the world had listened to Nicholas, then 20,000,000 wouldn't have died un-necessarily in World War I  and a further 10,00,000 Russians wouldn 't have died in the Russian Revolution. I'm glad they built a monument to Nicholas in Shushenskoye, Russia.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2011, 04:08:57 PM »
You're welcome, but what does WW1 have to do with the Shtandart cruises in Finland?

Offline bkohatl

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Re: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2011, 10:21:08 AM »
I love history and the best parts to me are the footnotes. I remember reading, in addition to the post that you posted, that people would bump into the Czar on these sortees from the Standart and he would greet them  and ask them how they were doing, in Finnish in Finland------------in Russian while walking the dogs along the Grande Allee at Tsarskoe Selo(they must have allowed the public in occasionally) and along the fence bordering the town of Tsarskoe Selo, Pushkin. He was friendly and warm, more like a country gentleman than the richest, most powerful man in the world. To me, it all ties together. You look at the parts, I think that the truth only is revealed when you look at the whole.
He never deserved to be the "most hated man in the world". I was prompted to write this because I was watching a documentary on either A&E, Discovery or History Channel and those were their words. Certainly, after reading the actions of the Kaiser, he would be better cast in that role than Nicholas. There is a difference between being wrong and being evil.
I am so happy that there are people who agree with me in Shushenskoye, Russia.

Offline TimM

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Re: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2011, 07:59:04 PM »
What was the relation between Russia and Finland back then.  I understand Finland was part of the Russian Empire, but was it totally controlled by Russia, or did it have limited autonomy.   Just curious.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2011, 10:10:04 PM »
I understand Finland was part of the Russian Empire, but was it totally controlled by Russia, or did it have limited autonomy.   Just curious.

Finland's foreign policy was of course controlled by Russia, but Finland enjoyed a very high level of autonomy, higher than any other part of the Russian empire. The Finns saw themselves as equals in a personal union, while the Russians took a bit different view and saw Finland as an integral part of the Russian Empire. Most visitors agreed that in this period a visit to Finland made you feel like you still were in Western Europe and not in "half-Asiatic Russia". An exception would perhaps be the forested and sparsely populated province of Karelia, the land of half-Orthodox, half-pagan runic singers, with a mystic tradition that inspired Finnish nationalism, most notably the national epic Kalevala.

When Sweden ceded Finland to Russia in 1809, Alexander I promised to the Finnish Diet, or parliament of estates, to uphold all the laws and liberties from the Swedish era. The Emperor-Grand Duke was thus a constitutional monarch in Finland, contrary to his position in Russia. Nevertheless the Finnish parliament did not meet again untill 1863. The Russians got a lot of initial goodwill in Finland by reuniting "Old Finland": the city of Viipuri / Viborg, the Karelian Peninsula and the and the other eastern, Karelian parts of Finland which had been Russian since 1721 / 1743, to the Grand Duchy.

Since the Finns, in contrast to the Poles, the rebellious enfants terribles of the Russian Empire, had been loyal to the Emperor-Grand Duke during the revolutionary movements of 1830, 1848 and the Crimean War, they were rewarded with the Finnish parliament finally being re-summoned and established on a regular basis in 1863, as promised in 1809.

The period untill 1898 was a period when parliamentary democracy steadily grew in Finland and the Emperor made the Finnish language equal with Swedish, in order to break some of the influence of the Swedish-speaking, liberal upper classes.

From 1899 the Russian government embarked on a very unpopular policy of Russification in Finland and Nicholas II tried to take away the Finnish parliament's power, something which made the Finns hostile to the Emperor and his government and ultimately in favour of independence. A dramatic protest against this was the assasination of the Governor-General Nikolai Bobrikov by the young suicide terrorist student Eugen Schauman in 1904. (Who, like too many modern terrorists had grown up in exodus (in Russia), dreaming passionately about liberating his Finnish fatherland from its oppressors.) When Russia finally became a constitutional government in 1906, Finland was one step ahead, making the leap from a medieval-style parliament of four estates to a modern parliament with universal suffrage, the first such in Europe.

NII's last visit to Finland was an official inspection visit to Helsinki in 1915. He was met with indifference. And the Finns greeted the Germans as liberators from the Russian yoke at the end of WW1, even going so far as to elect Prince Friedrich Karl of Hesse-Cassel as "King of Finland and Karelia, Duke of Åland, Grand Duke of Lapland, Lord of Kaleva and the North"! A key figure of the Finnish independence movement in 1917 and onwards, speaker of parliament, regent and later president Pehr Evind Svinhufvud, an ally of Mannerheim, was a right-wing monarchist, but had been exiled to Siberia in 1914 for opposing Russification. When NII abdicated and was arrested, Svinhufvud allegedly "walked to the town's police station and bluntly announced, "The person who sent me here has been arrested. Now I'm going home." In Helsinki he was greeted as a national hero.

On Nicholas II's name day, the 6th of December 1917, Finland declared itself independent, for the first time in its history. But severing the links to Russia did not spare Finland from a bloody civil war, in which, unlike in Russia, the Whites, led by General Mannerheim, who once had escorted NII to his coronation, won over the Reds.

Here are details about an interesting Finnish-Russian poltical crisis involving Grand Duchess Olga Nikolayevna during the last years of the Grand Duchy!

Russian Finland was a relative success story untill Nicholas II messed up that too. (But Alexander III had started the Russification by for example Russifying the Finnish postal service. Though the story that it was prompted by a Finnish postmistress who didn't want to accept the vacationing Emperor-Grand Duke's Russian roubles, only Finnish marks, is probably not true!)

Soundtrack: The catchy March of the Björneborgians, the Finnish equivalent of the Preobrazhensky March. Originally a rather anti-Russian piece celebrating how the Finns, abandoned by the Swedes, fought the Russians in the War of 1808-09. During those happy days when Alexander III let Europe wait while he fished on the Finnish skerries and visited his buddy the poor fisherwoman Serafina Lindblad on Högsåra, Maria Fyodorovna, who had been brought up in the era of the (for Denmark disastrous) ideas of Pan-Scandinavianism and always was the champion of the Finns, persuaded her husband to always bare his head when the Finnish national anthem was played and allow the playing of the March of the Björneborgians.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 10:38:35 PM by Фёдор Петрович »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2011, 11:18:24 PM »
the Karelian Peninsula

Oops, make that: the Karelian Isthmus. The Finnish border on the isthmus was just 50 km from St. Petersburg. Otherwise interesting is also that the Monastery of Valaam (Finnish Valamo) in the Lake of Ladoga, a great Orthodox spiritual center visited by many Romanovs, was in the Grand Duchy of Finland. (Today, sadly I say, it's in the Russian Republic of Karelia, due to the Winter War.) And as we have seen in this thread, there were still quite a lot of the indigenous Finnic Ingrians and Swedish-settled Finns around Tsarskoye Selo and the other imperial estates south of St. Petersburg.

Offline TimM

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Re: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 03:57:59 PM »
Thanks for the info :)

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2011, 04:56:09 PM »
You're welcome!

Here is a post with some info on the relationship between the Štandart's running aground a Finnish skerry, the Russification of the Finnish pilot service and WW1.

BTW here is an interesting detail. Today Finland uses the original version of the arms with the lion brandishing a straight, Western-style sword and trampling on an Eastern-style sabre, as seen here on King Gustav Vasa's tomb:



But during the Russian era, the lion was also holding onto or picking up, rather than trampling on the sabre, as seen in this example: :-)


« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 05:25:46 PM by Фёдор Петрович »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2011, 08:31:43 AM »
Since the Finns, in contrast to the Poles, the rebellious enfants terribles of the Russian Empire, had been loyal to the Emperor-Grand Duke during the revolutionary movements of 1830, 1848 and the Crimean War, they were rewarded with the Finnish parliament finally being re-summoned and established on a regular basis in 1863, as promised in 1809.

Add to that the Polish January Uprising in 1863, and you see why Alexander II rewarded the loyalty of Finland.

Offline Williamsorb

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A Question about Finland and the Baltic Coast
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2016, 02:10:49 PM »
hey fm, the 3 main ones are 27.465/27.605/27.625. Another one on 27.065 sig:6/7 audo:2/3, any ideas where they are coming from??