Author Topic: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II  (Read 118914 times)

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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2010, 11:44:09 AM »
According to Greg King and Penny Wilson's book on the Russian court, Andrei took a degree in law, so he had a brain as well. That's one reason why I think he's interesting.

Ann

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #106 on: November 18, 2010, 11:48:51 AM »
I totally agree with you Ann, he was the only one who took the trouble with Anna Anderson and to get the root of it all.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2010, 01:07:50 PM »
According to Greg King and Penny Wilson's book on the Russian court, Andrei took a degree in law, so he had a brain as well. That's one reason why I think he's interesting.

Ann

He may have had some brain, but he didn't have a lot of personality! :-) He seems to have spent what money he left Russia with in the casinos of southern France, and then lived on his wife. the way that Kchessinska provided for her "useless Romanov males" (as a friend of mine once styled both Andrei and his putative son) is the admirable side of a person who until the revolution seemed pretty selfish.

By the way, Court of the Last Tsar is Greg King's book.

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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2010, 03:41:15 AM »
I'm not impressed with any of the Vladimirovichi - it's just that Andrei was the least bad of the bunch.

Ann

Offline XJaseyRaeX

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #109 on: November 19, 2010, 06:21:11 AM »
Nice photo. I wonder how her relationship with them differ from Elisabeth ?


It always seems to me that Elisabeth was a daddy's girl and Ernst doted on her. Ducky doted on her as well, but i wonder if the marital strains had any effect on her feelings towards Elisabeth, rather than with her two younger girls she had with a man she loved.


I am.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2010, 11:32:37 AM »
Well...Ducky later had her hands full when her eldest daughter Marie got boy crazy.  :D

Offline Olgasha

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #111 on: November 21, 2010, 05:03:33 AM »
Victoria Melita with daughter
Мишкин, Мишкин - зашелестел кумачовым флагом на улице озорник ветер...

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #112 on: November 22, 2010, 08:16:15 AM »
I am pretty sure this was Maria, the elder daughter.

Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #113 on: November 22, 2010, 08:18:19 AM »
Yes, its Maria.

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Offline Carolath Habsburg

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #114 on: November 25, 2010, 04:48:34 AM »
Gd Kyrill Vladimirovich



 

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Offline Павэл

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2010, 02:27:52 PM »
A little on the Removeal of the Guard Equippage:

Its been noted that Dr. King has made comment and other comments are also in place. Consider alternatively:

Nicholas has abdicated and hence is no longer in a command position. That privelige then passes to Michael. Michael passes executive authority (which by definition must include final military authority) to the Duma Committee. In the rule of Nations, the state never dies, although its personnel might, so these two transfers are immediate and 'unbroken'. Hence KV is now taking orders from the duma committee or from any subcommittee it has formed and delegated to or from any military commander it has authorised for that purpose. But the standing orders remain.

Put another way, until the new government (or its appointed delegates) say otherwise, The Guards previous orders (defend the palace) ARE STILL IN PLACE.

But what about swearing loyalty to the new regime?

The military etiquette (accross the world) is for unit commanders to take loyalty oaths from their soldiers. Before this the commanders will swear loyalty either through their own higher commanders or in person. So, KV can easily go to the capital and swear loyalty. As guard commander he would be entitled to travel about to ensure smooth runing of the regiment. Upon finishing he returns to the regiment and gets his subordinates to swear their new loyalties.

If soldiers had to personally take oaths directly to the head of government there would be chaos - is the whole russian army to get the train back to Petrograd every time a monarch 'passes on'? In the middle of a war? Did the troops in Afghanistan suddenly fly back to Washington when Obama was elected? The military etiquette -the command chain principle - is set up just for these eventualities. Orders remain until rescinded by the new authority, etc.

KV might not be a legal traitor, but he has still abandoned his post.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #116 on: December 04, 2010, 02:32:26 PM »
Yes. Because of that, people are not quite sure about KV's character. His abandoning of his post & duty damaged his authority later...

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2010, 04:46:10 AM »
In the British Armed Forces (except the Royal Navy, curiously enough) members swear allegiance on joining to the reigning monarch by name, and his/her 'heirs and successors', so there is no need for any fresh swearing-in on the death of a monarch.

In Russia things were different. The Decembrist confrontation took place when the St Petersburg garrison were assembled to swear allegiance to the new monarch following the death of Alexander I.

As I understand it, the American armed Forces swear allegiance to the American constitution, not to the president of the day, so no need for new swearings on a change of president (potentially every four years, so potentially chaotic).

Ann

Offline Павэл

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2010, 05:07:37 AM »
Indeed - even if Russia did require the re-swearing of an oath then this can still be done via the command chain, the entire regiment does not necessarily need to be shipped to the capital. Each nation has its own variation, but each has recreated the command-chain principle in one variety or another and also different variations on 'interregnum rules' depending on precise circumstances.

I would argue that even in russias case, then loyalty oaths and standing orders carry over - otherwise on the death of Alexander I (presuming the command chain 'dies' with the monarch) the regiment would stop functioning and all soldiers would be released. If a parade could be arranged then the loyalty oaths did infact carry over to Nicholas I.

In much older days soldiers (presuming they were 'freemen') were indeed released from service upon the death of a predecessor and had to re-swear. But that was before the ideology of the 'state' (as opposed to merely 'terrain ruled by a person') was in use.

The question then becomes 'Has Russia, at some point prior to 1917, become a state ruled by a monarch or not?' I would argue that she probably had crossed that line and re-swearing ceremonies are merely formalities. The main 'indicator' for me would be the very existance of succession laws - surely an indicator that the nation has rules and therefore independant existence beyond an individual.

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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2010, 01:00:44 PM »
Anyhow Kyrill's actions were problematic anyway you look at it...